[Niall C]

Tim

Yes this thread has ended up going down the same path as a lot of other caddie threads, but my point in starting it was to find out whether getting a caddy at a course you don't know helps with your understanding of the course (as opposed to helping with your score) or does it just get in the way ? In other words, if left to your own devices would you think more about what the appropriate strategy was, or learn more from getting things wrong which you might not have playing with a caddy ?

Feel free to answer, not many have 

Niall

[Tim Martin]

Tim

Yes this thread has ended up going down the same path as a lot of other caddie threads, but my point in starting it was to find out whether getting a caddy at a course you don't know helps with your understanding of the course (as opposed to helping with your score) or does it just get in the way ? In other words, if left to your own devices would you think more about what the appropriate strategy was, or learn more from getting things wrong which you might not have playing with a caddy ?

Feel free to answer, not many have 

Niall

Niall-I don't feel like I missed a thing by having a caddie and as I said in my post I enjoy the experience.

[Jim Lipstate]

Most of my caddie experiences have been positive. When planning a golf holiday and especially if playing a world class course, I value having a seasoned hand to steer me around. I can't imagine, for example, trying to play TOC the first time without some guidance. My enjoyment of the experience would have been greatly diminished.


I will always remember the quite inventive invective from my caddie at Turnberry after I flubbed an approach to a green (the caddies had side bets on our group). That was outside the tote the bag, show me the line, give me an idea of the break on this putt experience we request of our caddie but proved to be humorous side note to our Scotland trip frequently recounted at the 19th after other rounds.


I recently played Ballyneal with a caddie that added greatly to my enjoyment of the round. A day later I played the Nicklaus course at Dismal River without a caddie and struggled with the numerous blind shots off the tee and elsewhere. My appreciation of that particular course improved after a second round and some familiarity with the course. I think the rating of that course likely suffers from those playing it only once and without some helpful assistance with someone knowledgeable of its routing and quirks.

[RJ_Daley]

Nail, to the reposted question, I'd have to say it depends on how much one actually know about the course, history, architect, and design/construction subjects, prior to playing it a first time. 

I think it can go both ways.  As Jim states above, I also played BallyNeal with one of the 'house caddies' who was very easy on the eyes (sweet frosh Uni of Wyo) who knew a bel niente (0) about golf or the course.  But, I'd been there during construction, heard some design stories and of course followed the many threads on BallyNeal as the course developed and was built and first played.  So, no caddie needed. 

Same with Sand Hills once when I had a caddie, student on summer vac.  I'd also been there prior, with super on course tour and a caddie like that added nothing. 

My first play at the first ever outing held at Whistling Straits, I had a jr college golf coach who already knew the course.  I was also hanging around during that construction, but a professional caddie like him (also named Dick) was valuable not only from tricky reads, but to point out interesting features and stories about design and construction we had both heard.  A great experience. 

Again, with Dismal River, no caddie at all, and didn't really miss the experience due to all the prior postings on the development of both courses nearly step by step over the years. 

I played a few others, and also were in the category of just a looper, and it just wasn't worth it.  Whether they can read the putts or not, I'm likely to miss the damn thing anyway if over 4ft, so other than yardages, which for a higher handi is a crap shoot also, well.... I could do without them.  As I said before, they are only worth it on a great and one off historic round in your life, and only if they are professional and actually know something.

...hope that is more of answer. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Here's a new one. I currently can not play without a caddie due to a back injury. I can't ride in carts, I can't carry my own and I can't keep up pushing a trolley. Had a fantastic time this weekend walking 18 each day with a caddie driving my cart along side me. It's difficult to explain but having a caddie drive my cart while I walked alone was more enjoyable than having a guy on the bag. The cart enabled him to drive up to my ball, lift clean and place it (will it ever stop raining), get a yardage all just in time for me to arrive. My partners, who were all in carts alone, said they never saw me play so fast. The caddie, a 68 year old good friend, also said it was easier on him. Win/win.

[Joe Bausch]

Here's a new one. I currently can not play without a caddie due to a back injury. I can't ride in carts, I can't carry my own and I can't keep up pushing a trolley. Had a fantastic time this weekend walking 18 each day with a caddie driving my cart along side me. It's difficult to explain but having a caddie drive my cart while I walked alone was more enjoyable than having a guy on the bag. The cart enabled him to drive up to my ball, lift clean and place it (will it ever stop raining), get a yardage all just in time for me to arrive. My partners, who were all in carts alone, said they never saw me play so fast. The caddie, a 68 year old good friend, also said it was easier on him. Win/win.

I'm going to recommend this method to Michael Whan.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Sean

You've nailed it once again.

I was once lucky enough to play a round with an Open champion, but my caddy bent my ear for the first four holes, rather than allowing me to socialise with our esteemed playing partner.

There is also the awkward question of the tip. At the end of the very same match, our caddy was not happy with the amount he was offered and buttonholed me and my playing partner in the car park, demanding more. We complained to the caddy management and he was sacked the next morning when he turned up to work. It all left a sour taste on an otherwise memorable day.

Young, quiet bag carrier every time.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: Did every member of the foursome of his own cart?  We have private carts as well as club-owned carts at my club and those with private carts go out separately.  I have my own cart but have been advocating for guys doubling up. 

[John Kavanaugh]

No. Two guys in one cart. One guy alone and then my caddie in my cart. 3 carts total. Yes the four guys four carts thing is interesting but very very fast.

[Kirk Gill]

This is probably horribly unfair, but when considering a caddie, I would always think of the scene from The Godfather where Mike Hagen and Jack Woltz are eating dinner, and talking about Johnny Fontane. Some very personal stuff is said by Woltz, but there, standing against the wall, are his servants. Listening to it all.

[Kris Shreiner]

As is so often the case with the caddie dynamic, it illicits the good, bad...and even a little ugly from our group.
To Niall's query, the degree of benefit is very much down to the expectations of the player AND the caliber of the caddie.
On a course of quality and serious  subtleness, teaming up and  actually EMBRACING the caddie experience could not help but add to the day.
Sadly, those on this site that generally exhibit distain for taking a caddie are often harboring deep social interaction issues.
Believe it or not, those doing the job are human beiings. Many know a ton more about the game than plenty on this site.
You read that quote written by Mr. Doak that will forever be on my posting tagline. It says it all!
Quite a few on here have inflated views of what they think they know.  On a calm day, playing a testing course of the top tier, outstanding golfers, unaided, regularly get their ass kicked trying to "figure it out on their own!"
If that is your idea of enjoying a challenge...have at it. I call that stupidity.
My take is based on first hand experience,  at numerous top ranked facilities in the world rankings. Watching high level amateurs and tour pros, who thought their playing ability, and golf smarts would see them through.
DEAD wrong...but that ego was front and center...and their game and scorecard told a very different story at the end of the day.
I have about as modest an income as anyone on this site, that isn't a student. I don't take a caddie every tiime. But I certainly respect  what they can add to a round, and have experienced how valuable a caddie can be when I take one.
If you are: cheap, want to go it alone, are socially challenged, whatever, do your thing.
But if you want to enjoy something special, try to arrange to have a quality caddie, or hustling youngster eager to please, the next time you tackle a course of caliber that offers them.
Begin WITHOUT any preconceived ideas....and I believe if you work TOGETHER to get the most out of that round, and realize your score is but a small part of that equation...you will!

Cheers,
Kris 

[Sean_A]

Kris


The biggest problem with caddies is they have priced themselvs out of the market. You may say they have great knowledge, but for 99% of golfers that skill relates to a leisure activity....so the skill is not nearly as valuable as the labour of a house cleaner or gardner...yet caddies want to be paid at least as well....hence there are few caddies on offer and in many places they must be mandated by the club to survive.  The concept as it is today is completely unsustainable on a broad scale. Caddies are competing against machines and the machines are cheaper.  Welcome to the modern world. 


Ciao

[Niall C]

Kris

I don’t doubt that caddies the world over are lovely, warm, gentle, human beings with only good thoughts in their hearts and a burning desire to assist their player in every way. However, my question was not whether the caddy could help improve your score, in fact it had nothing to do with score, but whether using a caddy helped with understanding the strategies and nuances of the design or whether it just got in the way irrespective of how well the caddy added to your day in other ways ?

Personally I’m aware that I play better at a new course mainly because my powers of observation are heightened as I take in unfamiliar territory. I also engage the brain more than I sometimes do on my home course as I think more about what I have to do. It occurs to me that if I took a caddy that I might not use my head to the same extent and therefore might take less notice of the architecture. The purpose of the thread really is to see if others were of a similar view.
As an aside and with regards to your comments on score I’d point out that there are some of us who play the game for the challenge, part of which is more than just being able to hit the golf ball but also working out where to hit it and how to hit it in order to get the lowest score. It’s a personal quest if you like.

Now you may think that “stupidity”, and indeed you may think it stupid for learner drivers not to get someone else to sit their driving exam, or students paying someone else to write their dissertation I don’t know, but I tend to think that it’s simply someone gaining satisfaction for doing it for themselves.

Niall

[Matt Dawson]

Sean

There is also the awkward question of the tip. At the end of the very same match, our caddy was not happy with the amount he was offered and buttonholed me and my playing partner in the car park, demanding more. We complained to the caddy management and he was sacked the next morning when he turned up to work. It all left a sour taste on an otherwise memorable day.

[/size]

Oh god, this. Yes. I live in fear of this sort of situation. I have a trip to play golf in NY coming up in Sept, and I'm already starting to dread the caddie pitfall-laden tip situation. In fact, tips generally....

[Tim Martin]

Sean

There is also the awkward question of the tip. At the end of the very same match, our caddy was not happy with the amount he was offered and buttonholed me and my playing partner in the car park, demanding more. We complained to the caddy management and he was sacked the next morning when he turned up to work. It all left a sour taste on an otherwise memorable day.

Oh god, this. Yes. I live in fear of this sort of situation. I have a trip to play golf in NY coming up in Sept, and I'm already starting to dread the caddie pitfall-laden tip situation. In fact, tips generally....

Matt-Ask any of the pro shop staff/caddie master as to the base rate and what the standard tip is. In and around metro NY the going rate with tip included at most places is $100 with some now as high as $120. It ain't cheap to hang around Gotham.

[Thomas Dai]

Kris

I don’t doubt that caddies the world over are lovely, warm, gentle, human beings with only good thoughts in their hearts and a burning desire to assist their player in every way. However, my question was not whether the caddy could help improve your score, in fact it had nothing to do with score, but whether using a caddy helped with understanding the strategies and nuances of the design or whether it just got in the way irrespective of how well the caddy added to your day in other ways ?

Personally I’m aware that I play better at a new course mainly because my powers of observation are heightened as I take in unfamiliar territory. I also engage the brain more than I sometimes do on my home course as I think more about what I have to do. It occurs to me that if I took a caddy that I might not use my head to the same extent and therefore might take less notice of the architecture. The purpose of the thread really is to see if others were of a similar view.
As an aside and with regards to your comments on score I’d point out that there are some of us who play the game for the challenge, part of which is more than just being able to hit the golf ball but also working out where to hit it and how to hit it in order to get the lowest score. It’s a personal quest if you like.

Now you may think that “stupidity”, and indeed you may think it stupid for learner drivers not to get someone else to sit their driving exam, or students paying someone else to write their dissertation I don’t know, but I tend to think that it’s simply someone gaining satisfaction for doing it for themselves.

Niall

Very nicely put Niall.


Golf is amongst other things a puzzle, a jigsaw, a game of chess played on grass. Would I want an assistant to help me with a puzzle, complete a jigsaw or play chess? Not sure I would.


Atb

[Cliff Hamm]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

 Couldn't agree more.  Both  Bandon and Cabot, I believe, follow this philosophy. It is as if you are monetarily penalized for being disabled.  Will be curious to see if Sand Valley follows in the same vein.

[David_Tepper]

Niall C. & Thomas D. -

As a practical matter, where do you draw the line on getting help vs. figuring it out for yourself? Using a course guide? Looking at a map of the course? Using the yardage markers on the course? Using a range finder?

Some courses are much, much easier to figure out than others. It seems to me that if one was going to play the Old Course for the first time (and was not really expecting to play it more than a few times over the balance of their life), one's enjoyment of that experience (in every respect, including appreciating the architecture) would be enhanced by having a competent caddie or a knowledgeable playing partner to guide you around the course.

If, and when, I get around to playing TOC, I will let you know how that works out.

DT
 

[Kris Shreiner]

Never knew that taking a caddie meant the player was ceding his or her intellect, and then enters into the frontal lobotomy zone...they are deprived of their ability to think, is that it?
C,'mon, that is about as lame as it gets. When a player and caddie work TOGETHER, both minds are engaged. A mutually beneficial confluence of information is shared and in the end...the player makes the decision.
Analogies can often  leave out significant parts of the equation ...
MANY younger or new car drivers are instructed by OTHERS in learning how to navigate the roads.
Why do we have maps? So we avoid mistakes.
Some of the finest writers on the planet have OTHERS proof or edit their writing. Why, 'cause they suck? Of course not. They want to do their best, that's why.
Now, you can take three hours to find your way somewhere that it should take an hour with directions or GPS. Or write something and be done with it, that would be better served with some outside scrutiny to improve it. But why do that, it's more satisfying to figure it out on your own. Really, it is!
I also CLEARLY stated that it is wise to try and ARRANGE to have a quality caddie or hustling youngster as your companion.
This is best done in advance of the round. Politely ask your host or hostess to request such caddies, or do so yourself in the destination or public golf settings that offer them.
Not all caddies are worth the outlay...and I have NEVER said they are.
In fact, unless the caddie can be counted on to do at least a competent job, he or she shouldn't see the first tee!
That reality is all down to the caliber of those running the caddie program.
I will say this, and I can hear the gasps coming...there are FAR more architects of fine golf courses...than there are creators of fine caddie programs.
That is a stone cold fact!
And don't even get me started on that sham caddie outsource model. It's everything caddie golf should not be.
The misleading, and often mentioned $100.00 per bag norm... a MYTH ...that gets bandied about quite often on here, and other haunts frequented by those that seem to have a peculiar loathing for caddies, needs correcting, pronto.
I have done extensive sampling throughout the US. , both private and destination golf.
While top tier, and high end destination facilities skew the reality in the minds of many, the truth is, a $60.00- 70.00 per bag rate, including tip, is closer to the truth. The forecaddie scenario, becoming very popular in certain locales with well-traIned caddies capable of doing a good job, drops that average even more significantly.
If you go to a Morton's, or Ruth Chris, the meal costs more than Golden Coral or Denney's. Golf with pedigree will generally cost you more than the lesser offerings.
The caddie experience should be top notch at the better facilities; again, that's down to who is hiring and running the program
 If the talent is wanting, let the management know about it!
Just as you should in any other situation where the service level was lacking.
Cheers,
Kris

[Sven Nilsen]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

 Couldn't agree more.  Both  Bandon and Cabot, I believe, follow this philosophy. It is as if you are monetarily penalized for being disabled.  Will be curious to see if Sand Valley follows in the same vein.

Yeah, walking only resorts, with courses designed to be walked, on terrain that is not necessarily easy to navigate and an agronomy plan that that doesn't fall in line with cart traffic or even with having people drive in the wrong places, are trying to gouge the few guests for which they have provided an avenue of access that falls outside of their mantras.


Perhaps its just the trade off for being on the leading edge of promoting walking golf.  Or perhaps the insurance policy that would have been required to allow guests to drive their own carts or the amount of work necessary beyond the minimal amount of dirt moved at each place would have made the idea cost prohibitive. 


Perhaps the truth is that being disabled does cost money.  Pretty sure medicaid doesn't cover the cost of required golf carts and their drivers, perhaps it should.


Come to think of it, I'm starting to think Bandon and Cabot should provide caddies free of charge for anyone that can walk the courses but couldn't do it if they had to carry or pull their own bags.  We wouldn't want to discriminate against them as well.


We could keep going all day on this, right down to the starters making sure Bob from Omaha with the touch of dyspepsia gets some free wet wipes before he heads out on to the course.  Surely we're discriminating against him by only providing a toilet every 5 holes.

[Michael Whitaker]

I shared a caddie at Ballyneal with my good buddy Wardo. Ward and I played fairly good that day... no stray balls... hit nearly all fairways... no lost balls. It was a quick and easy round for the caddy. We were told the caddy was one of the best at Ballyneal. He did an unexceptional, but more than adequate job.

At the end of the round I presented him with $80 for carrying my bag, which I thought was a good fee for my half of a very easy two bag loop.

He sneared at my $80. So much so that I quickly pulled another $20, stuffed it into his paw, and wished him a happy day.

It is uncomfortable situations like this that make me hesitant to hire a caddie. Quote me a TOTAL price up front. Don't tell me $50, but expect $100.

I've had some great caddies, but I've never had one that I thought was truly worth $100.

I have a good friend who was a member at a prominent northeast club with a manditory caddy program. He told me that he would spend at least $3000-$4000 per year on caddy fees. Hey, if your family gave you a multi-million dollar business and money is no object then I guess spending $4000 a year on 40 year old caddies is fine with me.  But, I don't spend that much per year on my club membership. Actually, I don't spend that much for my TWO club memberships.

[Sven Nilsen]

I've had some great caddies, but I've never had one that I thought was truly worth $100.

Michael:


Just out of curiosity, and only meant to clarify where you're coming from, is there anything that you would splurge on?  High priced restaurants, self-winding watches, fast cars, loose slot machines, etc.?


I say this because most people have their own sense of the worth of a dollar.  As you alluded to, $100 might be fine for some while seeming pricey to others.  And on the other end of the spectrum are the $200 and up payers who think nothing of it, and to whom this thread definitely does not apply.


And don't think that the guys on the other end of the equation don't have an appreciation for what it means to get paid a little extra by those they know don't have too much to spare.  Sometimes a little extra means a lot more than a couple extra pieces of paper in your pocket.


Sven

[Niall C]

Never knew that taking a caddie meant the player was ceding his or her intellect, and then enters into the frontal lobotomy zone...they are deprived of their ability to think, is that it?

Not really worthy of comment but let me merely point out that what I said was I might not use my head to the same extent, not that I didn’t use the brain at all.

 C,'mon, that is about as lame as it gets. When a player and caddie work TOGETHER, both minds are engaged. A mutually beneficial confluence of information is shared and in the end...the player makes the decision.
Again, have a read at what I said, I like to work it out for myself. That’s a large part of the satisfaction in playing the game.

 Analogies can often  leave out significant parts of the equation ... MANY younger or new car drivers are instructed by OTHERS in learning how to navigate the roads.
Yes, but would you have the instructor take the exam for you ? Getting back to golf, most of us have had lessons at some point but you don’t get a lesson in the middle of a comp or have the pro hit your shots for you when keeping score.
 Why do we have maps? So we avoid mistakes. Some of the finest writers on the planet have OTHERS proof or edit their writing. Why, 'cause they suck? Of course not. They want to do their best, that's why. Now, you can take three hours to find your way somewhere that it should take an hour with directions or GPS. Or write something and be done with it, that would be better served with some outside scrutiny to improve it. But why do that, it's more satisfying to figure it out on your own. Really, it is!
While I quite enjoy driving, travelling isn’t really a recreation for me. Golf is. The fun and the challenge is doing the best I can under my own steam. Driving is an exercise in getting from A to B.

 I also CLEARLY stated that it is wise to try and ARRANGE to have a quality caddie or hustling youngster as your companion.
Kris, you’re clearly not listening. I don’t care if you had Bill Murray or Mother Theresa toting the bag, or even that prick Stevie Williams, I don’t want a caddy !!!!
This is best done in advance of the round. Politely ask your host or hostess to request such caddies, or do so yourself in the destination or public golf settings that offer them. Not all caddies are worth the outlay...and I have NEVER said they are. In fact, unless the caddie can be counted on to do at least a competent job, he or she shouldn't see the first tee!  That reality is all down to the caliber of those running the caddie program. I will say this, and I can hear the gasps coming...there are FAR more architects of fine golf courses...than there are creators of fine caddie programs. That is a stone cold fact!

Well let’s all rejoice in that.
Niall

[Kris Shreiner]

Niall,
I READ everyhing you wrote.

YOU don't want a caddie! Aaahhhh....see,  that is at the root of all your thoughts on the subject.
 You provide ample evidence of that. You see no value in what thay provide. But the reality is...you DON''T want to see any value in them either. And that is fne for you.
I have total respect for how people spend their money. A vegatarian has no interest in a steak...no matter how good it is.
I get it...and so do you.
Where you and I, along with others,  differ ...is the contempt and distain for the caddie that permeates your views. An almost subhuman regard for them.
What I will ALWAYS rise to, is offering illumination on the TOTALITY of what that richest source of the game's champions and differencemakers has, and CONTINUES to provide for the game.
The percentage of those players who use them is irrelevant to the discussion. Their historical impact, on the game so many claim to love on here is, and has been ,"TITANIC."' It is irrefutable.
On that basis alone, the endeavor, even if you choose not to engage them EVER, deserves more respect than you and many others give it.

So you can carry on as you wish.

I will never shrink from my responsibility to present a more complete picture when warranted. Caddie golf is the way I found the game. Ten of thousands found it that way to.
I can NEVER repay what the caddie avenue, and the game, have contributed to my life. But I will die trying tto make a difference wherever it makes sense.

I find it interesting that Ran's most recent feature intetview, with Adam Lawrence, touched on establishing golf regions having the opportunity to attract and provide opportunity for ALL economic levels by potentially starting caddie programs.
Adam has taken a neutral to less than supportive stance on caddie golf in the past from what I have read of his input when that topic  has been discussed on this site.
Given his liimited experiences with the culture, that is certainly understandable. I believe he is slowly coming to appreciate that avenue's potential.
Look to other countries: Scotland, Ireland, the US, Argentina, India. ALL have caddie golf to thank for brnging significant numbers of modest to poor folks into the game.
If we look beyond just what we think about OUR OWN personal situation regarding a subject, some revelations emerge than often provide a greater appreciation for what is really in play.
Reflection and an open mind are powerful channels for growth, and a greater understanding often becomes attainable for all of us.

Cheers,
Kris 

[Paul Jones]

When I went to Scotland 15+ years ago, my friend and I were close to broke so we would take turns hiring a caddie.  On the 1st tee whom ever didn't hire a caddie, would give the caddie $20 at the start and ask him to help out with direction and help with putts.  However, on the Old Course we each got a caddie.

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