Baltusrol

[Bruce Katona]

Cliff:

Correct. You walk in along hole 8 (I guess) and enter the playing venue by the 16 th green.   It's flat and provided you don't need assistance it's really not terrible. We did see several courtesy carts taking folks who needed s bit of assistance out to the gate ......and a separate cart drove Davis Love and family out onto the course to watch His Lads  practice.

Tim:
No we had a pass for CH access today. No real big deal but my kid ran into a bunch of her school
mates when we were having lunch  (and no the food was not free). The  other tix I have are just general admission.  For general tix holders the best place to cool off is the apparel sale tent - it's huge and has lots of AC.

[Cliff Hamm]

Just watched Bubba hit a drive 390+ on 18 into the short rough before the brook that crosses the fairway.  Further proof the game is being ruined..18 was once an excellent par 5.  It is now a long par 4.

[Pat Burke]

Just watched Bubba hit a drive 390+ on 18 into the short rough before the brook that crosses the fairway.  Further proof the game is being ruined..18 was once an excellent par 5.  It is now a long par 4.

as I remember it, I thought 18 was a layup off the tee to stay short of the creek back in the glory days?
Plus, while I was watching, they mentioned Bubba hit it miles past everyone?

[Cliff Hamm]

Caddied there in the 60s and sorry i think u are incorrect.  It was only a layup to avoid trouble.  In 67  Nicklaus with the lead hit 1 iron short of the fairway, wedge, and then the famous 1 iron.  Never meant to be a layup.  Spieth hit it just short of Bubba, well 30 yards or so.  Anyway, the equipment makes a mockery of a hole that I think is much better than 17....


BTW bringing the creek out was a good move.  The bunkers on the right not so much....

[jeffwarne]

Just watched Bubba hit a drive 390+ on 18 into the short rough before the brook that crosses the fairway.  Further proof the game is being ruined..18 was once an excellent par 5.  It is now a long par 4.

aaah but it's being balanced out by such great features as that God awful above ground pool to the left of the driving zone


I took a bagroom kid with me yesterday.
His take on the golf course other than #4 which he loved  (so we're not talking a GCA snob here)
"It's a bunch of long, straight flat holes "

My take?
ZZZZZ
repetive Double digit 460-504 yard par 4's-some long par 3's, and then two pretty good par 5's to finish-terrible flow and rythym to the course
any of the par 4's would be good to very good on any other course (bunker left, bunker right) but there's soooo many of the same hole
2.3 and maybe 11 stood out as not being the same as all the rest
ZZZZZ

Despite the architectural numbness of the course, the pros love it(proof it is archtecturally devoid of interest) and it is a good "test" of the modern game we have allowed golf to become .

As I walked around yesterday, I was taken in by the BIGNESS of the event.
Even as a PGA member, I've always thought of The PGA as a distant fourth in the major Rota, but given the USGA's recent debacle(s) and lack of leadership, I wonder if their window is about to close.
The PGA is a much more progressive organization than the USGA and much more open to marketing and promotion.
The average person doesn't know the difference between the USGA or PGA, or who the governing bodies are and I'd say the name 'PGA" is far more recognizeable to the average Joe.
Could our National Championship (the US Open) fade to fourth ?(after previously being first in many eyes-or perhaps only previously outshadowed by The Masters)
lately the Open (British) Championship has emerged strongly and is arguably first or second with The Masters, so I'd say the US Open and PGA are definitely vying for third place-with The PGA surging and The US Open fumbling.

WTF is going on with the font here?.....

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Jeff: I'm not sure the PGA Championship is in a position to "overtake" the U.S. Open anytime in the near future, unless the USGA keeps standing in their own way. However, I do agree with you on the PGA of America's marketing efforts at the event, compared to that of the USGA's at the U.S. Open.


I have attended three PGA Championships (2010 Whistling Straights, 2014 Valhalla and 2016 Baltusrol) and two U.S. Opens (2013 Merion and 2016 Oakmont), and each PGA Championship had a "bigger" feel to the event and site. The PGA Championship, while similar to that of the Open, has done a much better job with branding the event, in my honest opinion. And I say that knowing that too much branding could kill the event, but feel as though the PGA has done a better job with its balance (main entrance, corporate tents, grandstands, signage, etc.). And honestly, I expected the USGA to be better than the PGA in this arena.


Similarly, I felt that the crowd flow at PGA Championships have overall been better at PGA Championships than at U.S. Opens. In fact, I was pretty disappointed with the logistics at Oakmont seeing as how big the site was and how difficult it was to move around. I even found Merion easier to navigate than Oakmont, and that's a much smaller size.


Although I am a PGA member, I feel that I am being as objective as possible, and be sure that I am not one of those "I could do it better" type of guys. Just my honest observations.

[jeffwarne]

Matt
Good points.
While most on this site would agree that the PGA is not threatening the US Open, I'd say the average guy may have or could have a different opinion.
If the USGA continues to trot out Mrs. Judge Smails as its representative and doesn't get a handle both on its rules, interpretations and implementations, it could happen quicker that we think.


In my youth, The Open Championship was easily fourth in US fans eyes, but I'd say most (even here)now recognize it as #1 oe #2 on the world stage that it is. So well run and soooo big. Their crowds dwarf anything here, and they don't sell out.
So much more signage the event is so much more part of the area that it's held in. Even yesterday I saw no signs as I approached the parking area or course until the last minute.
In the UK,Even the Senior Open qualifiers have signs around and leading you into the courses where they are held.
Much more of a big feel.

[Steve Lapper]

As a once former "US Open is numero uno*" guy, I'd agree with you both...up to a point.


I think the PGA is much better at organizing, marketing and presenting itself to the majority of golfers and it does a far better job of connecting to the John Q. Public golfer. Having a local, accessible, PGA professional present at both public and private courses helps the average golfer identify with the brand as well. The USGA, through all of it's mishaps (recent and historic) does an excellent job of sequentially alienated it's audience. Perpetually hitting them up for $25 every season (and then spending some part of it on private jet fuel) doesn't help. Bad, mixed-message, commercials don't help much either.


Where the USGA does help itself is with it's history and it's venue rota. The average Joe dreams of Pebble, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Brookline, Pinehurst#2, etc... They connect with the (hit and miss) attempts to go to popular publics. When I talk to my brother-in-law (he's the perfect anecdotal Joe), he eats up the historically important places. He was fascinated by Oakmont, and is already planning on visiting Shinnecock. Quail Hollow and Valhalla don't quite ring the same, and likely never will.


This is where Baltusrol works best for the PGA. The governance of Shunpike Rd. was wise to ward off the overtures of the blue blazers and instead cast their lot with the PGA. They rented their competitive history and prestige to a forward-thinking organization for a better price and a higher probability of a return performance in the future. The only downside it that the same committees won't take the steps to deforest the course and return the strategies that don't rely on brutal rough heights. The Lower is a full-on schlog-fest and that's the way the club likes it.




*After first playing across the pond in the early 80's "The Open" took the mantle for my favorite major.

[Cliff Hamm]

Do you think that Baltusrol needs further tree removal?  If so where?  The only tree removal that is obvious is off of the very back tees and that is fine with me.

[jeffwarne]

Steve
You nailed it.
The USGA has historically better sites.


In addition to a few PGA clunkers, where the PGA has failed abysmally is their insistence upon returning to the Nicklaus fiasco in Benton Harbor for the Senior PGA...ickkk and of course a few of their recent PGA sites
Sadly the USGA's presentation of Chambers relegated it the same status (at least in the eyes of the public)


Senior Golf is the perfect (and increasingly only) place to showcase classic golf-let's save the modern hwater strewn, oversized crap for the young bombers.


I was always and Augusta guy first. US Open second, Open Championship, then PGA.
Now it's Open, Masters and a tie for third with the USGA's dottering soon to have them last.


I also hold the USGA responsible for the equipment nightmare and blame the use of modern monstrosities and modern classic redos/Baltrusolzations on their lack of leadership in rules monitoring.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

I agree with Steve and Jeff on their fine points here.

[Steve Lapper]

Do you think that Baltusrol needs further tree removal?  If so where?  The only tree removal that is obvious is off of the very back tees and that is fine with me.

  Cliff,


   Certainly, they've removed plenty of trees over the last few years, however so many massive trees throughout the property definitely hinder air flow between holes and across the property, ultimately delaying or defeating the ability of the course to dry out between storms.


  Hole's 3, 6, 10 & 11, 14, & 17 still have a handful of trees that overhang the playing lines and could use some trimming and thinning.




Jeff,


   I agree 1000% with your assessment that the USGA deserves the criticism for the equipment nightmare. While I understand their first run-in with Ping was scary from a financial and on-going viability perspective, they ultimately failed to find any spine after that. I lay the blame squarely on the Nominating & Executive Committees and their perpetual failure of corporate governance.

[Joe Bausch]

I wouldn't mind a bit a few more longer views opened up, particularly those that allow the majestic clubhouse to be seen.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Full disclosure: I haven't played either course at Baltusrol, but from attending the championship, I definitely think a lot of trees could be taken down. However, the playing corridors were wider than I expected based on the photos I had seen prior to my visit.


The other thing that surprised me is that many of the trees have not been "limbed up" as I would have expected.

[Tim Martin]

The PGA will never have the cache of the US Open regardless of how many gaffes the USGA piles up as this is our national championship. As far as compelling venues is there any course in the US Open rota that you wouldn't rather see showcased than a course like Atlanta Athlectic Club as an example? I got tickets for a practice round online and was amazed at how cheap they were compared to the other majors even in metro NY. And the tournament rounds can be had for a relative "song". I'snt this a fair measure of how the PGA stacks up against the other three majors? Additionally if the PGA of America does such a good job please explain the bus situation as to the walk in!? To listen to the grumbling and grousing about the walk in you would have thought we were headed to the electric chair instead of a day watching the greatest players in the game on a historic venue.

[Josh Stevens]

Doesn't look to be much terrain variation?  is it a decent site or just a piece of farmland?

[Steve Lapper]

Tim,


   No one said the PGA would rival the US Open for cache, or prestige. No it probably never will, however it will continue to gain in popularity and acceptance from golf fans that tire of the USGA's "holier than thou" attitudes and antics.


  As for the busing situation, I'm told (from a reputable "inside" source") that it was a decision driven mostly from local and state security & transportation authorities coupled with the PGA & Balty's desire to manage human traffic flow around the clubhouse. By NO means to I condone or support this busing bullcrap, but that's where the bulk of the reasoning rested. I do know plenty of people who have weekend passes and won't be going back due to the lack of parking, time to travel and walking distances.




Josh,


   There really isn't much terrain variation on the Lower Course. The Upper does have much more and as such, is vastly more interesting. The Lower did start as a piece of (flat) farmland.

[Ronald Montesano]

They may not finish. It's going to rain all night, all day, all night and all day again, if you believe weather.com.

[Tom_Doak]

   I agree 1000% with your assessment that the USGA deserves the criticism for the equipment nightmare. While I understand their first run-in with Ping was scary from a financial and on-going viability perspective, they ultimately failed to find any spine after that. I lay the blame squarely on the Nominating & Executive Committees and their perpetual failure of corporate governance.

It was actually the Polara golf ball lawsuit that scared their pants off.  They lost it -- with 3x damages in an anti-trust case -- and the settlement would have wiped them out, but they won the appeal and didn't have to pay.  That's when they started building a war chest to fight the equipment companies.  [Sounds like Hillary fighting Wall Street.]


Weirdly, playing my new course at Forest Dunes the other day, I found a new-looking Polara golf ball in the rough.  I had never seen one, but it does have a unique dimple pattern.  Does anyone know if they are now/still making them on the black market?  This one sure hadn't been laying around in the woods for 35 years.

[Thomas Dai]

Weirdly, playing my new course at Forest Dunes the other day, I found a new-looking Polara golf ball in the rough.  I had never seen one, but it does have a unique dimple pattern.  Does anyone know if they are now/still making them on the black market?  This one sure hadn't been laying around in the woods for 35 years.

Tom,


Seems like the Polara's are still around, Walmart, Ebay, direct -


See - http://www.polaragolf.com/shop


I wonder if anyone will admit to using them?

By the way, have you tried these? - 'Almostgolf' ball - lightweight, limited distance, and less impact damage on a head-hit - http://www.almostgolf.com

I've tried them. There okay. Different game though. Brings features/hazards back into play that haven't been relevant for decades, which I guess can't be that bad in many ways. The future?


Atb

[Matt_Cohn]

A lot of the greens look to have brown patches. What's up with those?

[Ken Moum]

Here is Dustin Johnson's description of how Baltusrol is playing this week:

"It's par 70, but it's quite long. I feel like I wear out my 8 & 9 irons on the par 4s...par 3s are fairly long too. I hit a lot of 5 irons"

Yeah, and while my wife and I were traveling the las few days, I can't count the number of times I heard someone on PGA Tour Radio say, "It's right there in front of you." Particularly in relation to Jason Day shooting what he has with virtually NO practice rounds.


Gack!


But then these are the same guys who praise Firestone, which looks like a bowling alley to me.


K

[Andrew Buck]

Easier pins due to conditions, lift, clean and place due to expected rain ... If it doesn't rain too hard the individual round major record could be blown away.

[jeffwarne]

Here is Dustin Johnson's description of how Baltusrol is playing this week:

"It's par 70, but it's quite long. I feel like I wear out my 8 & 9 irons on the par 4s...par 3s are fairly long too. I hit a lot of 5 irons"

Yeah, and while my wife and I were traveling the las few days, I can't count the number of times I heard someone on PGA Tour Radio say, "It's right there in front of you." Particularly in relation to Jason Day shooting what he has with virtually NO practice rounds.


Gack!


But then these are the same guys who praise Firestone, which looks like a bowling alley to me.


K

Those quotes represent all that's wrong with modern golf.
Somebody has to say it as even reasonable people on this site will ask why it matters to me what pros do?
Because it influences the game and courses we all play.
To deny that is to stick one's head in the sand.



If the players and by extension the PGA Tour radio announcers, had their way,
TOP Golf would design the next Major course i.
Super long ,Super fair--straight holes,Artificially elevated tees, bunker left, bunker right, obligatory water-especially on 18.


Actually, add a dome(which might be a desireable feature this week)

[Jeff Bergeron]

I love to go to Baltusrol. The history alone makes it well worth a visit. Both courses are fantastic and staying in the clubhouse and viewing all the old memorabilia is a special treat. That being said, can you really distinguish the holes on television. Everything looks the same. The solution:


Massive tree removal.
Restore the native, most importantly around the streams.
Remove the stone walls on the water hazards.
Green expansion and bent grass greens.


Eliminate the Jones' and restore Tilly!