Cabot Cliffs - Holes 5, 16, 17

[Jeff Tang]

I just returned from three days at Cabot playing a combination of the Links and Cliffs.  While the Links was enjoyable this post focuses on the Cliffs.  I thought the Cliffs had a lot of very cool golf holes.  I didn’t really notice the course par structure of 6 3’s, 4’s, and 5’s which I think is a compliment since the course flowed very well and provided a lot of variety.  Holes 2, 3, 8, 10, 12, 13 14, 15 and 18 were some of my favorites.


I’m curious to get thoughts of those who have played the course on holes 5, 16, and 17.  I should mention we played the green tees, or the ones second to the back.  The wind was significant on days one and two and much less on the last day.

On the first play I thought the 5th was a very awkward hole and didn’t care for it.  This may have partially been due to the advice given by a caddie in our group which turned out to be a very conservative line that left us with 180-190 yards into the green. The line was well to the right of the bunker with a hybrid suggested.  While the second plays downhill that line still seems much too conservative and in later plays felt that the line just to the right of the center bunker with a 3 wood was for me much better and left a considerably shorter second shot.  The hole became more enjoyable the more I played it and I think as the course matures and the green surrounds become firmer the second shot will continue to get more interesting.

The 16th is an interesting hole and I am still not sure what to make of it.  It’s certainly a manageable distance but with the winds plays like a much longer shot.  The hole seems to leave no room for a conservative play as left of the green is native and a bunker so if you try to play left and long the risk is a lost ball or at best a ball in the bunker.  Short, long, and right are obviously no good so that makes it what I feel is an all or nothing shot.  Given the location of the back tee on 17 I can see the need to protect that tee with the bunker and native but I think it makes the hole very penal. 

I found my experience playing the 17th very similar to the 5th.  At first I did not care for the hole but after I learned the appropriate line (for me) the hole became much more interesting and playable.  There is a LOT more room right than what appears.  However, if you can’t make that carry over the fairway bunker I feel that the left side is quite penal.  It is lined with vegetation and bunkers so it makes a bail out shot essentially nonexistent, similar to the 16th.  Laying up from the tee doesn’t seem like a realistic option since the landing zone is very small and in the frequent windy conditions seems that it would make it very difficult to land the ball on the fairway. I don’t know if it’s possible but I feel having more fairway to the left or at least thinning out the vegetation to the left would make the hole much more playable.

Overall our time at Cabot was great.  Having the accommodations, dining, and golf all right there is a major plus.  The more I played the courses the more enjoyable they became as the strategies became more apparent and the course is chock full of interesting golf.  If I’m missing some of the strategy on 5, 16, and 17 I’d be curious to get the thoughts of others and also general thoughts about Cabot from those who have played the course.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Well, I saw Golf's Most Beloved Figure make a one at the 16th hole, so I know it's playable ... although there was not a breath of wind when we played.


I do agree with your question on #17.  I didn't look around to see why they hadn't, but it seemed like the hole would benefit from a bigger "safe" landing area on the left.  Hitting to the "safe" place seemed like a very small target, especially for someone that doesn't know the course well.


I played too safely on #5 the first time, as you did, but I thought it was a great second shot from the top of the hill.

[William_G]

the question could be, why place safe on #5 and 17 for your first play?

personally I find, I don't learn anything by playing safe on a first play, in that the adjustments if needed are not within a few yards, which is where you should be learning

also, with the hole located on the right at 16, a hole in one could be likely

[Jeff Tang]

the question could be, why place safe on #5 and 17 for your first play?

personally I find, I don't learn anything by playing safe on a first play, in that the adjustments if needed are not within a few yards, which is where you should be learning

also, with the hole located on the right at 16, a hole in one could be likely

Well I wasn't trying to play safe on the first play, rather just trying to figure out the correct line since on both of those holes the landing area is blind.  It wasn't until after the first play that I realized the lines I took weren't optimal.  I could go much more aggressive (further left) on 5 and much more aggressive on 17 (further right).  They are both tricky holes playing for the first time without any real certainty about what the correct line is.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I agree with you that I am not sure what to make of 5.  For those that played Cabot Cliffs last year you should be aware that the tee has changed and moved much farther left.  The issue from this angle is that if you push your drive to the right then there isn't much room, you can go down a very steep bank that puts you in a hazard in front of the third tee.  Maybe it is a hole that will work better once you get used to the correct line, but for right handers that slice this will be a very difficult hole.  Perhaps the angle is better from the other tee deck that was used in 2014.

I have no issues with 16 - it is an all-world hole.

I like 17 but a few folks that I know dislike the hole.  I agree with Tom that they should clear out the left side to give you more room to lay up.  But if you are on the correct line you can drive the green or be left with a very interesting severe downhill shot.  Last year I putted onto the green from about 70 yards away as you just had to get the ball rolling as there is nothing to stop it until the green or a greenside bunker.  This hole also plays better from the black tee deck, which is the one behind the greens, where you are hitting more into the cliff face.

[Chris DeToro]

Three really interesting holes--I am one that plays more aggressively especially on my first go around a course.  I, too, found #5 a bit awkward.  I just couldn't get a good line for where to hit my tee ball and pulled it a little which left me with a short yardage but not much of a chance from the lie I was in.  I think 16 is a great hole, but, in the wind I played in, I also found it to be very penal.  It was a close to 3 club wind and just tough to make a confident swing.  But I do love 17--I'm just a fan of the short par 4 and I love how the severe downslope on the approach, if you don't get it down by the green off the tee, leaves so many options (including the 70 yard putt)

[Brad Tufts]

Count me along with those a bit skeptical on 16-17.  I have nothing bad to say about 5...we played it from 340 and it was a 3w or hybrid then a mid or short iron.  I thought it was a great hole.

16 seems uber-penal to me, and we didn't even see a pin on the lower right side in three rounds.  From the back tees at 180y, the wind was in the face from the left, so our tee shots needed to start left of the green, and bounce down the hill.  In three plays, I hit three solid 4/5 irons, and had one ball on the green to about 25 feet staying on the upper tier, one catch the fescue and hang up in an impossible recovery above the hole, and one that I thought was the best one that hit the downslope and found one of the bunkers long.  I thought had a pin been on the bottom right, it would have almost been too difficult, BUT, it was our decision to play from 180.  I thought the challenges would make a bit more sense from closer in, maybe 160-165 max, but the view is not quite as good from there.

17 is a quandary that I'm still not sold on today.  The caddies all wanted driver from the back tee, even straight into the wind.  I don't think I'd ever be comfortable going for "all the unseen room to the right" with a re-tee as a potential result.  Even though that room exists, there is still a 200+ yard carry uphill into the wind.  I hit 3w my first play, hit it well, and landed next to the caddy about 210 from the tee.  My second play was too far left (bushes), and my third was long left leaving an awkward recovery where I pretty much had to lay up with a wedge.  My feelings now are much like #16 above, spectacular location, you have to put a hole there, but the strategies aren't perfect.  Even if I became comfortable after many plays with the right edge and going towards the green, it doesn't sound like it takes a spectacular shot to reach the green.  So the options are a)bail left, leaving awkward 75y approach, b)lay way back and bring the carry hazards into play to leave 100-110y approach from the top of the hill or c)forget the huge cliff and hit the green after an upwind 230y carry?  I guess, but just don't know... 

Personally, my favorite stretches on the Cliffs are 2, 5-6, and 13-15.

[MCirba]

Really good questions, Jeff.

I'd throw 18 into the mix for consideration, as well.   

[Brad Tufts]

I was fine with 18. It's reachable, but only for those that shape a tee shot very skillfully to avoid the fairway bunkers on the left.  If you are comfortable with three shots, one must throttle back.  The green has tons of room to the left for bail outs and touchy pitches.

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Brad - when were you there?  I don't think #5 plays 340 from the tees being used in 2016.

[Jeff Tang]

Really good questions, Jeff.

I'd throw 18 into the mix for consideration, as well.

18 is a cool hole and another great setting.  It's visually intimidating since the coastline is all the way down the right.  I could not get myself to hit driver in the fairway and kept pulling my shots into the bunker or native left.  My last round I finally bit the bullet and hit 3 wood safely to the fairway and ended up birdieing the hole.  It helped that the last round the wind shifted slightly and hitting 3 wood didn't hurt me too much from a distance standpoint.  Into the wind it's a much tougher shot.  Either way once you're in the fairway there are a lot of different ways to play the hole from laying up short of the hazard that juts in, trying to hit over it, or playing around it to the left.  Cool hole due to the several different ways to play it.

[William_G]

@Brad - when were you there?  I don't think #5 plays 340 from the tees being used in 2016.

2016  345 black   322 green

essentially a right to left cape hole where the more left you play off the tee the further the carry

[Brad Tufts]

@Brad - when were you there?  I don't think #5 plays 340 from the tees being used in 2016.

I was there in mid-August 2015.  The #5 tees I played (we played the back tees wherever they were set) were directly behind the right-hand green for #4 (the left green was not in play yet).  We were told about lower left tees for #5 being contemplated that would make the hole much longer, but I remember being able to hit straight down the fairway from the 330-350 tees.

[William_G]

17
 
331 Black 277 Green

to carry the fronting cliff bunker of the tee   182 black  162 green

to reach the downslope to the green   230 black   210 green

the first play obviously you think you want the bailout to be wider left, but that is part of the intrigue in that you can drive the green with a properly struck shot by taking the line over the bunker off the tee

additionally this hole usually plays into the prevailing wind from the west

any discussion about the crazy green on #6, LOL

[Brad Tufts]

I just think the first-play line is SO tough on #17.  My caddie wanted driver way over the cliff but I insisted on hitting a 3w.  And, that 230 to the downslope was easily 250-260 with the wind on the day I played so that's a big hit.


I LOVED the green on #6, very cool!  Also fun is that the tough pin is right in front, which looks like you could putt to it from the tee.

[William_G]

Brad

No doubt on the pucker factor on 17 tee....nothing like a huge rock cliff to scare the crap out of you

funny thing is that you do bail left you can then hit your putter down to the green

[Ben Voelker]

Brad

No doubt on the pucker factor on 17 tee....nothing like a huge rock cliff to scare the crap out of you

funny thing is that you do bail left you can then hit your putter down to the green

William,


Exactly and I was just going to say that.  I putted from the left side of the fairway from about 75 yards around the front left bunker and onto the putting surface in one of my two plays.  No doubt a wedge from there would have been difficult, so I enjoyed the options on 17 once one was safe.

[Brad Tufts]

Brad

No doubt on the pucker factor on 17 tee....nothing like a huge rock cliff to scare the crap out of you

funny thing is that you do bail left you can then hit your putter down to the green

I honestly thought the wind was the biggest factor, in that the prevailing wind is in the face.  With no wind, everything becomes much shorter and a bit wider.

[Tom Ferrell]

I didn't like the tee shot on No. 5 the first day I played it.  Seemed like there was no real good line - no real cape situation  and no obvious elbow to play to.


The second and third times around, I played the yet-to-be-opened back tee behind the fourth green (I did ask and receive permission to do so).  I LOVED the tee shot from down there.  So many options and club selection possibilities based on the intended line.  If I were setting up CC, I'd always have the back two sets down there.


I played No. 16 from both the green and the back tees - and birdied from both.  Just a heroic shot, but as with other heroic shots at CC (tee shot at No. 2, tee shot at No. 7), there is a lot more forgiveness than you can see.


I think No. 17 is both a great and flawed hole.  The desired line over "the rock" is very, very demanding.  I am no short hitter, and I hit what I thought was a perfect drive only to find out it joined the seals and sea birds. A 4-hybrid out to the left is fine, and if you get a little bounce, you might still end up in the greenside bunker. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Brad - when were you there?  I don't think #5 plays 340 from the tees being used in 2016.

2016  345 black   322 green

essentially a right to left cape hole where the more left you play off the tee the further the carry

I really think the hole is much longer than those distances given.  Aren't hole yardages supposed to be measured down the centre of the fairway?  Did anyone get within 100 yds of the green from the green tees?  Take Jeff's OP about having 180-190 left to the green - that implies a drive of 130-140 yards which is very short, even if using a hybrid.  Maybe the distance is as the crow flies.

[William_G]

Wayne, yes the yardage guide I am looking at does seems "off"

[Jeff Tang]

@Brad - when were you there?  I don't think #5 plays 340 from the tees being used in 2016.

2016  345 black   322 green

essentially a right to left cape hole where the more left you play off the tee the further the carry

I really think the hole is much longer than those distances given.  Aren't hole yardages supposed to be measured down the centre of the fairway?  Did anyone get within 100 yds of the green from the green tees?  Take Jeff's OP about having 180-190 left to the green - that implies a drive of 130-140 yards which is very short, even if using a hybrid.  Maybe the distance is as the crow flies.

When I was left with 180-190 that was from the very conservative line I was given on the first play.  My last play I used a three wood and hit it just right of the bunker and was left with about 160 to the center.  Playing downhill it was an 8-iron from there.  However I would agree from the distance provided on the scorecard don't really equate to me hitting a 3 wood - 8 iron to get to the green so the distance does seem off.

[Greg Gilson]

I think there was a similar comment from Tom Doak in an earlier thread about CC. We played the week before official opening this year so there were not all tee markers out....and we did not take a caddy. However, the card lengths did not correlate to any actual distances. My partner (scratch marker) & I both hit 3 woods to top of hill thinking we would have 8-9 irons. Even with downhill approach it was a mid iron.

Great hole but yardages on card  need correction!

[Ben Malach]

the numbers on the score card  and yardage guide are measured accurately as I was part of the two people to do it. I can understand maybe there were some changes to course set up as I have not made it out to Cabot this year. But the numbers in the guide were done in the most accurate fashion as possible.


As for the lines on 5 . The lower tee on 5 was always part of the original design of the hole but due to some very severe weather during construction in the second year the tee deck washed out and due to the grow in year being compressed by preview play was only able to be put into play this year. I do think that the hole is significantly better from here leaving many options for play. The upper tee is good for higher handicaps as there is limited need to carry hazards but it brings the big blow out bunker more into play. I think that the features of the hole will become more apparent as it ages and grows in more completely.


As for 17 I can understand the hesitation about it but I believe that Brad and his team have been trying to slowly move the rough up on the left side of the fairway. Which improves the play of the hole as last year it was a major penalty. Personally I have found the best line is just to the right of the fairway bunker leads the ball to run down the hill. But a safe play to the top of the hill leads to one of my favorite shots on the course as it can play putter to - 8 iron depending on the wind or pin. A fun quirky hole that I think needs to be played many times to be loved.


16 is a good par 3 as I have ever played. I personal have never had the privilege play at the far right pin but have played shots to the green and putted out to it from the top of the green and have used the ridge to feed the ball out to it. I think both plays are good but I personally think that 3 is a good score here and I do not see the issue with this.  Getting it close on 16 is a challenge but there needs to be some meaty par 3's on any course. Why not make it the most visually arresting as well. Now to what I believe is the real challenge of this thread the caddies of Cabot.


From the most part I see comments in this thread relating to people listening to caddies and finding themselves in challenging places or caddies suggesting less than optimal lines. From my experience the quality of caddies at Cabot is very hit or miss. They have some wonderful boys out there that take the game seriously and can be a wonderful asset to a game but in equal numbers there are some real bag toters. In my humble opinion if you do not have a caddie recommended to you I would carry my own or take the advice with a grain of salt.   

[William_G]

I hit driver straight at the bunker over the water (which really does come in close to the shore, not as drawn) from the left green tee both plays...in the bunker first time, cleared it second time.....85-90 yds from there