Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?

[Ian Andrew]

Played it a few times ... I respect it more than anything.
It doesn't really move the emotional needle outside of the 7th and 8th which are truly sublime.

There are some very nice small scale details, but very few holes that are memorable.
The sum is grander than the individual parts for me and therefore a 7 is the max.
I did not have it in my Golf Magazine Top 100.

[Jason Topp]

Jason


In case you were in any doubt the previous post is intended to be humorous. That said, I think there is a bit of truth behind my comment if you substitute "one-time players" for "Americans". They often say that you need to play TOC several times to get to know it, and I think the same is true of what you call "monotonous flat land devoid of interest".


Many links are flattish and don't have the eye candy of others but that doesn't mean the land is devoid of interest. The interest comes from the bounce and the roll, and you will often find that some fairways tend to shed balls one way or the other. First time, and only time round, you might not appreciate that but once you learn that then the ground has bags of interest.


As a matter of interest you and a few others including Ran seem to think highly of 7. If you think about it, 7 is largely made up of the flattish land that you describe but with elevated tee and green. It's all out in front of you. I wonder if that is why visitors list that hole as one of their favourites ?


Niall

Niall - I took the comment as you intended it but have not glanced at the board since hitting "post."   My opinion is definitely the result of one day of play and I agree that multiple rounds would greatly enhance my understanding.

Nonetheless, my strong impression of the course is that the player's primary focus is to keep it in play and the land provides little in the way of unique challenges.  In that respect it is very similar to American tree lined courses frequently criticized on this site. 

With respect to number 7 - I found the land to provide great interest with a bit of reverse camber effect.  I also suspect it is a joy to play a hole basically downwind.  I do not think it has much to do with visibility.  Americans are generally charmed by the totally blind holes at Prestwick or Lahinch for example. 

A Doak 6 is a very good golf course.  A 7 or 8 places it among the elite in the world.  I think 6 is about right. 

 
 

[Pete_Pittock]

It has been 20 years since I played it for the second time. I would rank it as an 7. I think the gettable opening holes provide a mental challenge as you can get deep in the red and then see it all leak away. They also provide balance, although it is unusual to see a long stretch of 'easy' holes on a highly ranked course.

What is the difference between 1-6 at Royal Troon and 7-12 at the Old Course, except the latter boxes the compass.

[Jon Wiggett]

6

Other than the loop from 7-12, the course sits on monotonous flat land devoid of interest.  The fairways are largely bowling alleys with a number of bunkers meeting out punishment and providing some strategic interest.  The course fails to provide adequate variety in an out and back setting.  Other courses with similar routings do a much better job of creating interest - Old Course, Royal Dornoch and North Berwick.

So flat that you hit your tee shot at 10 over quite a dune. Jason, have you even been to Troon? Plenty of movement on the ground from a golfing point of view on holes 7-12.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Niall

Why not just give all the Scottish courses you favour 9s & 10s and be done with it 

I hasten to remind folks...that an 8 is something like top 50 in the world.  I haven't seen enough 8s and above to have a steady footing with this sort of world stage talk.  But if I even go to my top 25 best in GB&I, I can't see how Troon fits in.  That said, we can all differ in our opinions.  My #25 is Woking (basically a tie with Renaissance, Royal Aberdeen, Cruden Bay and The Island) which I would give a 7.  Even if I thought Troon was Woking's equal, I couldn't put it in the class of an 8...which would be top 10 GB&I for me. 

Ciao

Sean

It's all about relative ratings. I haven't played enough outside Scotland to talk at all knowledgeably about what should be in the World Top 100 etc. However I have a pretty decent handle on Scottish courses so if Dornoch and TOC are 10's on the Doak scale (which from memory I think they are) then I have to ask myself why not Troon ? I think both of them are terrific courses that I like but any better than Troon ? I don't think so.

Niall

Niall

In a word, the greens.  Troon is hopelessly outclassed at this end of the course.  Besides, TOC has several more compelling holes than Troon and a more interesting design.  To me, the two are streets apart in quality. Dornoch has as many compelling holes as Troon without the dull opening stretch of holes.  Again, Troon is outclassed on just about every front to do with architecture except difficulty. 

Troon is basically quite a penal design aided with a penal set-up.  IMO, its very difficult for courses like this to compete with more varied designs in terms of quality. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Not the most photogenic of courses and although some may claim this has no effect on how they rate/rank a course I reckon it's bound to have at least a smudgen of an effect, maybe more.


Atb

[Jason Topp]

6

Other than the loop from 7-12, the course sits on monotonous flat land devoid of interest.  The fairways are largely bowling alleys with a number of bunkers meeting out punishment and providing some strategic interest.  The course fails to provide adequate variety in an out and back setting.  Other courses with similar routings do a much better job of creating interest - Old Course, Royal Dornoch and North Berwick.

So flat that you hit your tee shot at 10 over quite a dune. Jason, have you even been to Troon? Plenty of movement on the ground from a golfing point of view on holes 7-12.


Jon

Jon - look at my quote again.  I specifically identified 7-12 as the most interesting part of the course.

[Rich Goodale]

Assuming that there are only 25-30 10's in the TD canon (don't own either confidental guides), and maybe another 50 in the 8-9 "grade", Troon is very solidly in the 8-9 brigade.  It is a course for the serious afficionado, but not for grumpy old men (or grumpy young men, for that matter).

[Niall C]

Sean

If you are comparing the courses off the normal members tees then IMO Troon isn't any harder than Dornoch. Neither do I think it any more penal. From the normal tees it’s very playable, the back is harder than the front, but still very playable. If anything Dornochs back nine is more of a slog with a lot of long hitting and some of those holes don't have the same interest that Troons do.

I’m not sure why you think the Dornoch greens better than Troons, but they are certainly markedly different. On the whole Troons greens are probably smaller. One of the travelling marshalls I spoke to at Troon made that point that Troons greens were smaller than the other Open venues. Whether that’s true or not I’m not sure but you still have the option to putt from off the greens at Troon in parts.

I don’t think you can say the internal contours of the greens are vastly different. The major difference, apart from size, is the plateau greens at Dornoch. Admittedly I’m not a big fan of plateau greens but even so I think at Dornoch they are overdone and generally not done very well. Far too much blindness. Next time you’re up that way have a look at the 3^rd, 12^th and 18^th at Moray Old to see how much better they are done there.

If you want to take the comparison thing further you could consider hole lengths, hole direction, direction of the par 3’s, shot values and all that stuff and I suspect neither course would do particularly well. 

TOC I'm not as familiar with from personal play but of course I've walked the course, watched a number of Opens there and studied/considered the design of the course like pretty well everyone else on this site. Similar to Dornoch and Troon above it would be easy to pick holes in it using the usual length/direction of holes, shot value criteria or even the over use of the same strategy for many of the holes ie. left is safe but harder approach. Then there is the 9^th hole. Not offensive as such, but not a hole you’d learn anything from.

So my question is how do you give Dornoch and TOC a 10 given there obvious shortcomings while judging Troon at least 2 or 3 grades lower ? To my way of thinking there’s no real difference in the quality of the courses if you look at it objectively. IMO the difference in rating is down to prejudice, both good and bad. Troon has suffered in the PR department ever since its first Open while the romance of Dornoch and the history of TOC are (quite rightly) recognised. That however should have no bearing in judging the merits of the courses but I can’t help thinking it does with a lot of people.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

I don't give TOC or Dornoch a 10...Tom does. I can and have given clear reasons why I think Troon is not the be all and end all.  It’s fine, we can disagree about Troon.  I know you don't subscribe to the proper definition of what penal means so that conversation won't go anywhere.   

Much more importantly, I am not much of a fan of Troon despite it being a very good course...and thats all that really matters. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

6

Other than the loop from 7-12, the course sits on monotonous flat land devoid of interest.  The fairways are largely bowling alleys with a number of bunkers meeting out punishment and providing some strategic interest.  The course fails to provide adequate variety in an out and back setting.  Other courses with similar routings do a much better job of creating interest - Old Course, Royal Dornoch and North Berwick.

So flat that you hit your tee shot at 10 over quite a dune. Jason, have you even been to Troon? Plenty of movement on the ground from a golfing point of view on holes 7-12.


Jon

Jon - look at my quote again.  I specifically identified 7-12 as the most interesting part of the course.

Jason,


sorry misread it.

[Andrew Simpson]

RD and TOC, I've played two 10s! Aahhh, a couple of posts later and they are an 8 and a 7, to think I was excited.
Liking and almost exclusively playing "traditional Scottish coastal golf" I'd put Troon up close to the top of my list but  I've not got a stand out so I cant give anything a 10, lots of 8s and very few low numbers because how can you mark a golf course badly, you're playing golf. So Troon a 7.5

[Bill_McBride]

It has been 20 years since I played it for the second time. I would rank it as an 7. I think the gettable opening holes provide a mental challenge as you can get deep in the red and then see it all leak away. They also provide balance, although it is unusual to see a long stretch of 'easy' holes on a highly ranked course.

What is the difference between 1-6 at Royal Troon and 7-12 at the Old Course, except the latter boxes the compass.

Aren't 1-6 at Troon similar to 2-7 at Pebble Beach, where you hope to get off to a good start, and then fasten your seat belts?   I love that about a routing.  Troon gets high marks in that regard. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Niall

I don't give TOC or Dornoch a 10...Tom does.  I give TOC an 8, Dornoch a 7 and Troon a 6...it is no better than my club. I can and have given clear reasons why I think Troon is not the be all and end all.  Its fine, we can disagree about Troon.  I know you don't subscribe to the proper definition of what penal means so that conversation won't go anywhere.   

You're a hard marker Sean.  What courses do you rate as a 10?

[Sean_A]

Wayne, according to Tom's definition, I haven't come close to a 10.  As a walk in the park, TOC is damn high, but only an apologist could say the course is nearly perfect and not a single hole could be skipped. 

I am probably a tough grader because I know I haven't seen a ton of the world's best...so I keep my powder dry as it were.  However, even on a relative scale, I can't see Troon being in the same class as the 25 courses I mentioned above....certainly not superior.  To me, except for the Postage Stamp, there is absolutely nothing distinctive about Troon's design to make it stand out in a crowd of a ton of very good courses.  Its calling card is championship links, that doesn't mean much to me in terms of design.  We all don't have to worship at the alter of penal championship golf. Troon makes up in history what it lacks in character.

If I were to go by the folks on this board, there would be very few well known courses which aren't 8+    I give Troon a proper 1*....thats a high recommendation.   

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean
 
I don't know what penal means ?! Hmm, maybe I need to go on one of those courses on how to be a rater.
 
In the meantime let me point out that in fairly testing weather conditions two different players equalled the lowest score for a round in a major, the winner set the lowest under par score in the Open and the second place golfer was only a couple of strokes behind the old mark. Of the chasing pack there were probably as many under par as they normally are and the leader of the pack had a score that would have put him in contention for most Opens. So if Troon is intended to be penal, it’s clearly not very good at it. 
 
Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

For crying out loud Niall. For the last time. PENAL and DIFFICULT are not synonymous.


It is perfectly possible for a penal design to be quite easy.

[Sean_A]

Sean
 
I don't know what penal means ?! Hmm, maybe I need to go on one of those courses on how to be a rater.
 
In the meantime let me point out that in fairly testing weather conditions two different players equalled the lowest score for a round in a major, the winner set the lowest under par score in the Open and the second place golfer was only a couple of strokes behind the old mark. Of the chasing pack there were probably as many under par as they normally are and the leader of the pack had a score that would have put him in contention for most Opens. So if Troon is intended to be penal, it’s clearly not very good at it. 
 
Niall

Niall

I don't think there is much question about it...Troon is intended to be penal...that is very common for championship courses. As it happens, I do think Troon does a good job with this style of architecture...which is also very common for championship courses.  When trying to provide a reasonable test for the big boys, it is awfully difficult not to use penal courses. Look at what has happened to TOC...the course relies on its rep as strategic course with wide open fairways....that is not really true anymore.  Over many years the R&A has systematically de-strategized the course to make it a tougher championship test.  As you note, even with penal designs and set-ups, pros can go low if the courses aren't keen. 

However, my real point about penal designs is it is damn hard to offer lots of variety in such a design. Oakmont does a decent job, but even when the USGA tries to create variety, it is done with shouting down by folks on this board.  I will never understand people being against variety, but it takes all kinds.

Finally...if how the pros play/shoot is the THE measure of architecture, then architecture is in for a very rough ride.

[Ciao

[Niall C]

Adam,
 
I never said they were. What I implied and indeed I think what I said was that if you play a championship in challenging conditions and players post record scores then it’s not much of a penal design on the basis that not everyone was hitting fairways and greens as per Henrik Stenson. Clearly there was quite a lot of leeway and it should be said strategy to be had.


No course is entirely penal or strategic. Sean’s comment on Troon being penal was I thought a bit dismissive, and therefore my response was in that vein. There are plenty of decisions to be made at Troon on line and length. I think that view validated by how some guys approached various holes differently.


 
Sean,
 
I think we are going back to the argument over whether you need acres of width to offer strategic design. Personally I don’t think you do. By acres of width I mean Castle Stuart type width or double fairways as per TOC. Clearly there might come a point where a course becomes so narrow that it cuts down the options on providing strategy. I don’t think Troon comes close to that. While I didn’t walk round every hole at the Open, from what I could see, even for the Championship, the set up wasn’t that far off every day play.


Also having observed professionals at close quarters on numerous occasions it occurs to me that they tend to act like pack animals in that they tend to take their lead from each other. At Troon I saw plenty of instances on the 10^th and 11^th tees where guys in the same group adopted different strategies off the tee. I saw similar on TV for some of the much maligned early holes where some guys attempted to drive the green and others purposely laid up short of the trouble.


While I don’t think you should be catering solely for pro’s, or at all for pro’s when designing a course, when you can offer these guys not only a challenge but different options you’re doing something right.


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Adam,
 
I never said they were. What I implied and indeed I think what I said was that if you play a championship in challenging conditions and players post record scores then it’s not much of a penal design on the basis that not everyone was hitting fairways and greens as per Henrik Stenson. Clearly there was quite a lot of leeway and it should be said strategy to be had.

But who other than Henrik posted a record score?

[Niall C]

Apologies, I was referring to Michelsons 63 which didn't create a record but did equal it.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

I always thought Penal meant that you were required to hit a certain shot or else you would be heavily punished. Troon certainly did not do this so I am struggling to see what was penal about the set up. I agree with Niall that width, or lack of it does not define penal nor does width guarantee choice.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Niall

Every course offers plenty of options of length so that is a poor measure of strategy. 

I disagree with you concerning line.  If you are telling me that that more width doesn't offer more opportunities for choosing lines of play I will say you obviously fail to understand the concept of strategy.  That said, I agree that there can be cases where width is not used well in the design, but in my experience this is VERY rare because there are so few purposely really wide holes.  We can debate all day about how much width is required for meaningful strategy to be present, but I can see you are not going to acknowledge basic ideas in the strategy V penal debate.  If you can't see how a 30 yard fairway between bunkers isn't more penal than a 45 yard fairway working around a bunker(s) than what is the point?

1-3, 7,8, 10, 11, 16 & 18 are all penal design holes which feature either hit over or hit between crap of some sort...and that is without even mentioning fairway width...which I argue is meaningless in terms of strategy at 30 yards wide because hardly anybody is good enough to be "choosing" sides of fairways when they are that narrow given the potential penalty for missing the fairway at Troon.  It would be a totally different bag if the fairway were wide, bit lost ball/hack outs are not in the cards for another 10+ yards either side of the fairway, maybe more based on wind and terrain.  I think you are barking so far up the wrong tree that you are in a different forest from me.

To me, Troon is basically a penal design presented in a penal manner....the clssic double whammy. This is very common in championship courses and one reason why I think they tend to be over-rated.  The real killer is that Troon doesn't distinguish itself very well with its penal elements.  Go down the road to Prestwick and the penal elements are superb, making for iconic holes.  All Troon gives us is #8 in the penal sweepstakes.  Nothing else really stands out as distinictively Troon like we get at Prestwick.  This is why I think Prestwick is easily the superior course.

I will let you debate with someone else.  I said what I think and we disagree...thats fine.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall

Every course offers plenty of options of length so that is a poor measure of strategy. 

I disagree with you concerning line.  If you are telling me that that more width doesn't offer more opportunities for choosing lines of play I will say you obviously fail to understand the concept of strategy.  That said, I agree that there can be cases where width is not used well in the design, but in my experience this is VERY rare because there are so few purposely really wide holes.  We can debate all day about how much width is required for meaningful strategy to be present, but I can see you are not going to acknowledge basic ideas in the strategy V penal debate.  If you can't see how a 30 yard fairway between bunkers isn't more penal than a 45 yard fairway working around a bunker(s) than what is the point?

1-3, 7,8, 10, 11, 16 & 18 are all penal design holes which feature either hit over or hit between crap of some sort...and that is without even mentioning fairway width...

Ciao

Sean,


I am somewhat surprised that you seem to think that strategy is mainly about width. I would suggest that the options of playing the ball to different lengths as well as options of lofted verses running shots are just as important as width. I am fully in agreement with your assessment of how the current set up of TOC has diminished but in my opinion this is mainly due to the fact that many of the pin positions are less accessible with the ground game than in the past and so it is the loss of shot options not width that has affected the interest of the course. Indeed width without the options offered by ground game and/or distance can also be very one dimensional.


I would also take issue with your focus on the fairway width. Fairway width is simply not the definition that any sensible golfer would take but rather it is the width within which you can expect to play a controlled golf shot. This of course includes the semi rough at most courses of which Troon is an example. Yes, the semi at Troon was not so wide but it must also be included in the calculation.


I also wonder at your assessment of penal golf. IMO, the only holes that are truly penal/ part penal at Troon that I can see are 8 (which oddly is the only hole you consider an all Scotland hole so can penal be so bad) , 10 due to the dune that need to be carried from the tee and 11 which is just too gorse lined though would be remedied with the right presentation. The rest I just do not see.


Jon

[Jeff_Lewis]

Probably 7.5.   Is that allowed?   Anyway, there is an interesting philosophical question in this thread.  I would say that I prefer holes that say "I have presented you with a difficult decision balancing risk and reward.  Decide on your strategy, then execute." vs. "Hit it here"

Some of the most famous holes in the world are the latter.  17 at Sawgrass for sure.   

On first blush the Postage Stamp almost feels like its surrounded by water, or worse! So, is It just a miniature version of 17 at Sawgrass?  I would argue not. As they were pointing out on the telecast, given the length of the hole, there is a decision presented on that tee.   Play to the front and have a longish putt or go at the hole.  Even though that "layup" area is not very big...it is only 100 yards away.  So I think the hole legitimately tempts players into taking the risk of going at the pin for the potential reward of a short birdie putt.  I think its strategic. 

Billy Casper at Winged Foot...is that the right reference.  Laid up on the 3rd all four days?   That's strategy folks.

Likewise on 11. Maybe a little less strategic than 8, but let's see.  Was there a strategic choice that was not considered by the players?  Most of these guys probably had a club that safely clears the initial gorse and CANNOT reach the gorse on the left.  That's also likely a club they can control extremely well, which most likely takes the railroad out of play. 

Now that club might leave a 260 yard second shot, but given the risk of trying to have a 200 yard second shot, bringing the left hand gorse and the tracks into play, perhaps these guys would prefer to have a hybrid or 2 iron that they can hit at the left side of the green. As Tip Anderson once advised Rick Reilly on the proper strategy for playing the Road Hole....play for a 5 and you might make a 4.   In this case, I am almost saying play for 4.5 and you might make 3.5. 

Anyway, I think there was a choice there, the guys are maybe just a little too confident in their ability to take it.