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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« on: July 15, 2016, 06:37:16 AM »
Mostly likely, it is either a 7 or 8.

A 7 is defined in the front of the book as 'An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good golf course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to golf.'

An 8 is defined as 'One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8's in some places and none in others) , and worth a special trip to see.'

Those are the strict definitions. In my own ranking, it breaks out where more or less an 8 is world top 100 and a 7 is not.

Much to my surprise, only one person in Volume 1 gave it an 8 - moi (perhaps not unsurprisingly)! Like the Mickle thread, I am prepared to be right solo!  8)

Does anyone else lobby for an 8? It does have something unique in golf with the iconic Postage Stamp hole. Is there any other par 3 where so much stress befalls the 2nd shot? You hear about Rye’s one-shotters and I suggest 13 at Muirfield but what a play on greed the “Stamp’s” narrowing green makes. The hole perfectly complements the 17th and together, they somehow overshadow the underrated 5th. So, the 3 pars are diverse and balanced.

As for the remainder of the course, the pressure to excel on Troon’s downwind par 5s is acute, which never helps. That leaves a slew of appealing two-shotters, some of which (7, 13, and 15) I would nominate as world class and two more white-knucklers (11 & 18) that with aplomb -  insert OB into the equation. Holes 9 and 10 add spiceersity based on how they go up and over the landforms.

I am big into the pacing of a course. Here, the good club golfer eases appealingly into the round at holes 1-6, then enjoys the course's best in 7 and 8 as he plays in the dunes at the end of the property before returning home with good/great holes evenly mixed on the way in. 

Detractors, I won't remember the 2nd or 4th on my deathbed but they aren't remotely close to being 'bad'. The greens don't have crazy contours in the middle of the greens but few Open courses do. Perimeter hole locations add putting spice.

Finally, Your Honor, as I rest my case, let me remind the jury: the playing surface here is the best grass for golf, bar none. Well-designed holes on fescue in a windy environment take on multi-dimensional qualities. Remember how Norman’s drive scooted in the playoff on 18 in the 1989 playoff? That's Troon - and its surfaces, humps and hollows and run-offs are worth a point on the TD scale when combined with ever changing wind conditions. In the midst of a 10 day trip to Scotland, you might start to take fescue/shifting winds for granted. However, I would be leery of equating that brand of golf to the more 'static' conditions found at a lot of deserving 7s in North America.

Anyway, that's my take. The zephyr of wind so far isn't helping to substantiate my position but ... conditions can always change in a moment. As you watch the play from Royal Troon these next few days, mull over its TCG grade. A friend sniffed, 'I respect it very much but I don't love it.' That's fine - as long as he gives it an 8.  ;)


 Let us know your grade and just as importantly, why.

Best,
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:13:44 AM by Ran Morrissett »

Sean_A

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon? New
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 08:05:03 AM »
Arble Scale...1*...worth an overnight detour.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 02, 2024, 10:22:53 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 08:59:46 AM »
I have to go with a 7. I did make a special trip to play Troon.
Mr Hurricane

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 09:07:23 AM »
Jim, was it worth the journey? Would you recommend a friend make the same trip?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 09:14:54 AM »
Troon highlights a problem with the "100 mile" journey criterion.


I would travel 100 miles out of my way to play Troon not because of its inherent architectural quality, but because of its fame as a host to so many Opens. If you set aside Troon's storied Open history, I wonder if it would rate much higher than nearby Western Gailes.


Bob 

Sean_A

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 09:56:08 AM »
Bob

Spot on...Troon is likely a Postage Stamp better than Western Gailes. It is Troon's history which makes it an attractive proposition....once.  Once Turnberry is complete, Troon will be wallowing seriously behind it and Prestwick. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 02:03:52 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 10:02:01 AM »
I'm at a 6.


We played Turnberry, Troon, Western Gailes, and Prestwick on the last trip.


I loved the Postage Stamp, thought 7, 9-12 were very good, 13-14 ok, and 15-18 a stern test. 1-6 were unremarkable to me.

BCrosby

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2016, 10:04:57 AM »
Sean -


The "100 mile" journey test would be improved if it was revised to say you would travel 100 miles out of the way to play the course a second time.


Bob

hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2016, 10:07:46 AM »
I agree with Ran, 8.  Too good a setting and too many good holes not to be.  It's been 14 years since I was there but remember it well.  The area around #7 would be a perfect spot to place a non golfer if you wanted them to feel what a links course is like.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 10:15:33 AM »
Some comments to add to the discussion - in the 2010 thread "Royal Troon - No Love?"


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46433.0.html
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 10:23:07 AM »
I would love to know more about what happened to the Portland course.


As I recall it was designed by MacKenzie and highly regarded in the 1920's/30's.


Bob

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2016, 10:30:12 AM »
I have a soft spot for Royal Troon as it was the first links course I played on my first trip to Scotland 20 years ago.  I traveled with my Dad on that trip and again in 2006, and he birdied the Postage Stamp both times!  I thought the first few holes were wonderful openers for a links virgin, accessible but a great introduction to pot bunkers - I have a great photo of my 15 year old son stuck in one of the fairway bunkers on 2.  I think Troon is a very fine golf course, and perhaps is analogous to Portmarnock in being 'great, but unspectacular', especially in comparison to the more visually spectacular Ailsa, and quirkier Prestwick nearby.  Forced ranking is hard, but I'd have Ailsa as a 9, Royal Troon and Prestwick as 8s, and Western Gailes and the generally underrated Dundonald as 7s.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2016, 11:39:49 AM »
Haven't played Troon so I am not qualified to answer really but I do like the challenge of an easy outward followed by a brutal inward...watching the Open, it reminds me of Deal, especially in the predominant wind!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 08:54:54 PM by Will Lozier »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2016, 11:53:39 AM »
Troon highlights a problem with the "100 mile" journey criterion.

I would travel 100 miles out of my way to play Troon not because of its inherent architectural quality, but because of its fame as a host to so many Opens. If you set aside Troon's storied Open history, I wonder if it would rate much higher than nearby Western Gailes.



I do not believe in adding ANY points to a course's ranking based on its history.  Because I know that the reader is going to attach some extra credit for that based on their own view of whether it's important, and it would be silly to give double brownie points for something that is non-architectural.


I still think Royal Troon is better than Western Gailes.  So does Ran, he just rates each of them a point higher than I do.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2016, 11:55:47 AM »
Sean -


The "100 mile" journey test would be improved if it was revised to say you would travel 100 miles out of the way to play the course a second time.


Bob


I do think of it in those terms, since there is some truth to the theory that every course is worth playing once.

Matt MacIver

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2016, 11:58:35 AM »
7 for me on the premise that Prestwick is a 9 (as is Kingsbarnes) while Turberry is an 8 and Western Gailes a 6. That's the order I'd replay them again, anyway, or recommend them.

All cost aside BTW since our group paid for rounds on Portland but didn't play, opting for Prestwick instead.

What I'm looking for in regards to high rankings are elevation changes, angles and complex greens - Troon is solid but lacks most of these vs the others.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon? New
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2016, 12:17:28 PM »
Sean -

The "100 mile" journey test would be improved if it was revised to say you would travel 100 miles out of the way to play the course a second time.

Bob

Yes, the 100 miles out of the way isn't too different from my "worth an overnight detour" in the UK given how bad traffic can get.  Troon only makes this level because of its history, but I think history is important because folks generally think of courses in terms of the day out...not solely on course quality.  If Troon didn't have the history I would recommend it as worth a significant daytrip....no more time in the car than it takes to play and have drinks is my rule of thumb. 

My issue with Troon as an 8 is it has only one All Scottish hole...and it is a doozy.  I don't think there is another candidate on the course even if there is a handful of very good holes.  That to me falls well short of an 8...which I imagine is something like a top 50 world course. 

Prestwick gets more kudos from me, but it has at least two all Scotland holes and probably more like four. Prestwick's more prosaic holes for the sake of championship standards are no lesser than Troon's.  I don't see the two courses as anything like comparable in terms of the Doak Scale....Prestwick is well ahead of the game because it has far more character and variety.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 02, 2024, 10:25:26 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2016, 12:19:11 PM »
Well, I did make a special trip to play it, Prestwick, Prestwick St. Nicholas, and Western Gailes.
Troon 7
WG 6
Prestwick 6
PSN 5
I was a little disappointed in Troon. Of course on that trip I played 21 of the world's best links courses in Ireland and Scotland. Troon did not excite me. Prestwick was fun but cramped.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 06:11:10 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2016, 03:22:42 PM »
I just did an Ayrshire trip seeing some courses for the first time (so a one play judge).

I'd probably go along the following lines:

Prestwick: 8
Troon: 8
Western Gailes: 6
Glasgow Gailes: 6
Irvine Bogside: 6
Dundonald: 5
Prestwick St Nick: 5

Will follow up with thoughts on Troon later. And do think Western Gailes is pushing a 7 and Dundonald is pushing a 6.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 03:37:31 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon? New
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2016, 05:41:11 PM »
If you guys are going deep:

Prestwick  2* - Plan a significant trip around this course

Troon  1* - Worth an overnight detour

Pre-Trump Turnberry  1*

Western Gailes  r - good trip filler

Dundonald  r

Gailes  NR - not recommended, shouldn't disappoint if invited for a game

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 02, 2024, 10:26:42 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2016, 07:18:27 PM »
Royal Troon absolutely an 8. One of the best courses in the UK. Beyond any history and even the famous Postage Stamp, holes like 7 are extremely underrated.  10 is great (improved) and 11 is world class. 13 and 15 are also excellent holes. The par 3's as a whole are great.  6-12 a great stretch and the whole back 9 solid even though difficult.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2016, 07:37:37 PM »
I remember reading about Arnold Palmer's playing of the 11th hole in the 1962 Open which he won, with the tortuously narrow fairway and the railroad line right there.   Today I see how the world's best played it in bad weather, what a nightmare.   It must be one of the toughest par 4s in the world.   Seeing it in HD on a fairly large screen brought that home.   


So two iconic holes....I'd love to play it from a reasonable tee one day. 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 11:37:24 PM by Bill_McBride »

James Brown

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2016, 07:51:22 PM »
I would rate Troon an 8, but I have always thought the Troon experience suffered from the long time 36 hole policy forcing you to play Portland and Troon to get on.  I don't know if this still applies, but found it annoying. 

Bill Brightly

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2016, 08:11:50 PM »
By the CG system, I guess it is a 7. Especially when you look at the holes individually. Outside of Postage Stamp and The Railway there are no uniques holes. But somehow I think it is an 8 based upon the overall pleasure it gives to the golfer; it is a thoroughly enjoyable links golf course. Ran touched upon the superb links playing conditions. The course also allows for very changeable weather conditions. It easily a course I could play every day and it passed the 18th green test: I wanted to  run straight to the first tee.

Niall Hay

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2016, 08:15:11 PM »
I would rate Troon an 8, but I have always thought the Troon experience suffered from the long time 36 hole policy forcing you to play Portland and Troon to get on.  I don't know if this still applies, but found it annoying.

This still shouldn't have any impact on the design of the course. Many on this site complain about the same thing. But the merits of the course should be seperate from the cost, experience, weather or other non architectural factors.