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Niall C

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2016, 02:10:38 PM »
Sean
 
I’m disappointed you want to close down the debate but as you’ve allowed me the final word let me comment.
 
“Every course offers plenty of options of length so that is a poor measure of strategy.” 

What I actually said in my earlier post was that there are plenty of decisions to be made at Troon on line and length. In other words you have to think about where you want to try and put the ball. As an example a common feature at Troon is the off-set tees such that you are hitting the fairway at an angle.


Clearly in those instances you have to think about how much of “the corner” you want to cut and that will depend on your ability, form on any given day, and the advantage gained relative to the potential downside of missing the shot. Or as one well-known denizen of this site put it in describing strategy “…serious golfers use advance planning of shots to maximize success. Identifying the smartest shots and the most "favorable positions" to aim for, in the context of your own ability and situation, is the essence of strategy.”


As I’ve said before, hitting a fairway at an angle also effectively widens the available landing area. There are other instances of line and length as below.


“If you can't see how a 30 yard fairway between bunkers isn't more penal than a 45 yard fairway working around a bunker(s) than what is the point?”

When you refer to penal above, I’m not sure whether you are referring to the bunkers in the context of the hole or the nature of the bunkers themselves. I’ll assume the former.


I also assume the centreline bunker is an oblique reference to the fourth at Woking so let’s use that as an example. The bunkers at Woking provide a number of options, namely play left (easier drive, harder second), play right (harder drive, easier second), play short (easiest drive, potentially easier second than playing left off the tee but probably longer shot) and play long (potentially hardest drive, and potentially easiest second). That’s quite a few well defined options.


Compare this to left and right fairway bunkers 30 yards apart as you describe, which in conjunction with left and right bunkers at the green, is a classic Braid design.


Ignoring other variables such as contours etc if the pin placement is left half of the green then clearly an approach from the right is best and vice versa. In either scenario one of the fairway bunkers needs to be negotiated to achieve a favoured angle for the approach with the options to achieve this being short (left or right as the case may be), adjacent (left or right as the case may be), or long (left or right as the case may be). The safer option off the tee might be more towards the middle and short. Again, there are quite a few options.


While the options at Woking might be clearer defined and more stark, the “Braid” design also offers a number of options therefore can be seen to be strategic also. The Braid options might be less stark but they are there nonetheless. Even a centre pin position offers the option of a lay-up versus taking on the bunkers and having a shorter approach.


Neither drive is risk free in either design. I don’t know the exact dimensions at Woking but let’s assume the bunkers combined are 5 yards wide, then that leaves 40 yards of fairway. Assuming the right hand portion is 15 yards wide then that leaves 25 yards on the left. As I remember it if you go left the ball kicks away towards the rough, thereby effectively narrowing the left hand route further. Is that less penal than 30 yards of fairway between two bunkers ? You can argue the toss either way.


“…and that is without even mentioning fairway width...which I argue is meaningless in terms of strategy at 30 yards wide because hardly anybody is good enough to be "choosing" sides of fairways when they are that narrow given the potential penalty for missing the fairway at Troon.”

You refer to fairway while I tend to think of playing corridor ie. fairway and semi or first cut of rough. You also refer to potential penalty for missing the fairway. I’ve no idea what the fairway widths were during the Open but I imagine that they varied (as they should) but wouldn’t argue with 30 yards. The width of the rough before you got into the bundi also varies (as it should also) but I’d suggest that you could get 5 to 10 yards in places, or to put it another way 40 to 60 yards for the playing corridor.


Even though it was the Open the rough wasn’t brutal, but really the difficulty of the rough is mainly a function of the weather. Often just off the fairway isn’t actually a penalty and I’m sure I’m not the only golfer who at times has been happy to see his ball run off the fairway on a links knowing he’d get a fluffier lie. I don’t know how many rounds I’ve played at Troon but I’m sure in many of them I’ve not lost a ball. In fact my lost ball count would be no worse than at CS or Dornoch.


Troon v Prestwick


Prestwick is a fine old course with features you don’t see on more modern courses. A number of its holes are indeed iconic. However to suggest that the only iconic hole at Troon is the Postage Stamp is a bit silly. The Railway Hole has already reached that status and arguably the 10th has as well, and there are a number of other memorable holes (Ran mentioned the 7th although I don’t think it the best).


Simply put I don’t recognise your characterisation of what is a top class links. I think I’m right in saying you’ve only played it once or twice, and then not for a number of years. I honestly think you should give it another go and I’d be surprised if you didn’t change your opinion of the course if you did.
 
Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2016, 08:00:54 PM »
I honestly think you should give it another go and I’d be surprised if you didn’t change your opinion of the course if you did.

Niall

In an ideal world I would like nothing more than to continually visit courses.  In the real world I must make choices and at £220 a pop Troon does not make itself a ready choice for me.  Clubs often only get one chance to impress and Troon failed.  Actually, Troon was the first links I ever played, must have been 1991ish. I did make it back some years later.

Ciao 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 02:22:48 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andrew Simpson

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2016, 08:20:49 PM »
Probably 7.5.   Is that allowed?   Anyway, there is an interesting philosophical question in this thread.  I would say that I prefer holes that say "I have presented you with a difficult decision balancing risk and reward.  Decide on your strategy, then execute." vs. "Hit it here"

Some of the most famous holes in the world are the latter.  17 at Sawgrass for sure.   

On first blush the Postage Stamp almost feels like its surrounded by water, or worse! So, is It just a miniature version of 17 at Sawgrass?  I would argue not. As they were pointing out on the telecast, given the length of the hole, there is a decision presented on that tee.   Play to the front and have a longish putt or go at the hole.  Even though that "layup" area is not very big...it is only 100 yards away.  So I think the hole legitimately tempts players into taking the risk of going at the pin for the potential reward of a short birdie putt.  I think its strategic. 

So the Postage Stamp is a version of 17 at Sawgrass. Is that the right way round?

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2016, 10:20:09 AM »
I am not sure I understand your comment Andrew.   You quoted my post which asked the question if they could be compared as penal "hit it here" type holes and I suggested that I thought that the Postage Stamp was more strategic, as it presents options, where Sawgrass 17 does not....

Niall C

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2016, 10:30:16 AM »
Jeff


I think what Andrew was suggesting is that Sawgrass is a version of the Postage Stamp since the Postage Stamp was there first.


Niall

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2016, 04:25:05 PM »
Gotcha.  That original architect must have had a flux capacitor to go with his whiskey flask. . 

Tim Gallant

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2020, 01:10:28 PM »
Following the chat about Troon in the UK Golf Guy's Greens Fee thread, I found it interesting to look back at some of the scores given on this thread.


One thing that popped to my mind is that we always say the old course needs to be seen multiple times to be appreciated. But I'd say this is very true for Troon as well. Like the Old Course, because Troon plays on flatter terrain (for the most part), I can see why some would forget some of the holes after 1 play because on a lot of holes there isn't necessarily anything visually that allows one to quickly catalogue the hole in the mind. In fact, the most memorable holes are those that are probably visually the most dramatic (7,8, 10). However, I do feel that on repeat plays, one discovers that there is a fair amount of variety, and that there are a lot of shots out there that are quite interesting. I have yet to encounter another links course where the bunkers on the first few holes are so vexing in the prevailing downwind.




Mark Pearce

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2020, 04:46:33 PM »
I have played Troon once.  I liked it a lot.  It's lacking in eye-candy, so it doesn't surprise me that a lot of one hitters, on trips where eye-candy is plentiful, don't rate it as highly as the golf deserves.  I'd probably play it 8-2 over Birkdale but I enjoy being difficult.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David Jones

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2020, 05:10:15 PM »
Thanks Tim - this was a fun diversion for half an hour or so!! Despite the raging debate the range was 6-8 I think.


I would go a 7. How dull of me! Those first few holes make it hard to fall in love with, but by the time you finish there is too much good there not to have admired. As you know though, I am a bit of a sucker for the eye candy.........



It got me digging out my GB&I Confidential Guide to see which courses had a 4 point or greater spread - I think only Royal Aberdeen (5-8), Skibo (4-7), Lundin (3-6) and The Castle (0-5) qualify for that distinction. Coincidentally, I haven't seen a single one of those yet and was supposed to be seeing all 4 this month. Sigh!!

Bernie Bell

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2020, 11:04:47 AM »
Were any minds changed this week watching the women play from a more reasonable yardage?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2020, 11:34:09 AM »
I will give it an 8. I think the course is demanding, requires accurate irons, rewards creativity, well bunkered, and the greens not overly sloped. It is a good test of golf. It suffers because it just doesn't inspire love.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2020, 11:47:07 AM »
I will give it an 8. I think the course is demanding, requires accurate irons, rewards creativity, well bunkered, and the greens not overly sloped. It is a good test of golf. It suffers because it just doesn't inspire love.


I agree with most of this - not sure how it rewards creativity any more than most good courses - but that's not really what the Doak Scale is about.  I'm trying to rate how far you would go out of your way to see it. 


If Royal Troon was the only links on the Ayrshire coast, would it make you want to drive over there?  And if you only had time for one or two courses while there, should you choose it over Prestwick or Turnberry?


I know that some good players will prefer Troon to Prestwick because they think the latter is too quirky.  And both have a stretch of mundane holes.  But if you could only see one of them, I don't think it's a close choice.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2020, 12:26:34 PM »
I will give it an 8. I think the course is demanding, requires accurate irons, rewards creativity, well bunkered, and the greens not overly sloped. It is a good test of golf. It suffers because it just doesn't inspire love.


I agree with most of this - not sure how it rewards creativity any more than most good courses - but that's not really what the Doak Scale is about.  I'm trying to rate how far you would go out of your way to see it. 


If Royal Troon was the only links on the Ayrshire coast, would it make you want to drive over there?  And if you only had time for one or two courses while there, should you choose it over Prestwick or Turnberry?


I know that some good players will prefer Troon to Prestwick because they think the latter is too quirky.  And both have a stretch of mundane holes.  But if you could only see one of them, I don't think it's a close choice.


I actually asked myself if I would choose Troon over Prestwick. Prestwick is a course to love. It is fun and requires more imagination than Troon. I would pick Prestwick over Troon. But maybe it is because of the state of my game, which isn’t so good.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 12:49:20 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Topp

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2020, 12:47:37 PM »
I was grumpy in 2016! 

Bernie Bell

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2020, 01:03:56 PM »
I will give it an 8. I think the course is demanding, requires accurate irons, rewards creativity, well bunkered, and the greens not overly sloped. It is a good test of golf. It suffers because it just doesn't inspire love.

I agree with most of this - not sure how it rewards creativity any more than most good courses - but that's not really what the Doak Scale is about.  I'm trying to rate how far you would go out of your way to see it. 

If Royal Troon was the only links on the Ayrshire coast, would it make you want to drive over there?  And if you only had time for one or two courses while there, should you choose it over Prestwick or Turnberry?

I know that some good players will prefer Troon to Prestwick because they think the latter is too quirky.  And both have a stretch of mundane holes.  But if you could only see one of them, I don't think it's a close choice.

I actually asked myself if I would choose Troon over Prestwick. Prestwick is a course to love. It is fun and requires more imagination than Troon. I would pick Prestwick over Troon. But maybe it is because of the state of my game, which isn’t so good.

If I had the time and the means, I think I would enjoy 30 plays on each before I made up my mind.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2020, 01:34:04 PM »

If I had the time and the means, I think I would enjoy 30 plays on each before I made up my mind.


Bernie:


I'm not sure the "30 plays" theory applies to my ratings.  I wouldn't have a problem with someone arguing that Royal Troon was a "better" course.  But even if that's so, it doesn't necessarily make it the first course you ought to go see.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2020, 06:32:32 PM »
I will give it an 8. I think the course is demanding, requires accurate irons, rewards creativity, well bunkered, and the greens not overly sloped. It is a good test of golf. It suffers because it just doesn't inspire love.


I agree with most of this - not sure how it rewards creativity any more than most good courses - but that's not really what the Doak Scale is about.  I'm trying to rate how far you would go out of your way to see it. 


If Royal Troon was the only links on the Ayrshire coast, would it make you want to drive over there?  And if you only had time for one or two courses while there, should you choose it over Prestwick or Turnberry?


I know that some good players will prefer Troon to Prestwick because they think the latter is too quirky.  And both have a stretch of mundane holes.  But if you could only see one of them, I don't think it's a close choice.


I actually asked myself if I would choose Troon over Prestwick. Prestwick is a course to love. It is fun and requires more imagination than Troon. I would pick Prestwick over Troon. But maybe it is because of the state of my game, which isn’t so good.
Tommy - I would also choose Prestwick over Troon, but not to the exclusion of Troon. I've only played Troon once, but it was a great course and I'd like to visit again. But, everything about Prestwick is "special." Its history and quirkiness go hand in hand to make for an amazing experience. 
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

MClutterbuck

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2020, 06:47:24 PM »
I have to agree with Tom here. If you set out for a Scotland trip and play 10-15 of the better courses, you would not be less educated about links golf if you missed royal Troon. However, missing Prestwick would be a large gap.


Those last 6 holes in the same direction at Troon do get kind of long, even before you get shouted at by the club official for taking more than 4 hours to play (and being last on the course).


Prestwick 7-3.

Niall C

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2020, 07:09:52 PM »
I was grumpy in 2016!


I can't believe this thread is from 2016 !


Niall

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2020, 04:46:29 AM »

I will never forget the article in Sports Illustrated after the '62 Open about how Palmer had played so well (JWN missed the cut...a month after beating Arnie at the playoff at Oakmont), especially on #11 where he would hit 1 iron- 1 iron (was a par 5 in those days)  and that was my first "exposure" to Links and Scottish golf (I was 17 years old).  I said to myself I can't wait to get to Troon.

Finally got to play it in 1977 on 2nd trip to Scotland.  Frankly was disappointed with 1-6, then blown away by the greatness of 7-12, and felt "beaten up" (not inappropriately) by 13-18 (extremely tough finish esp into wind).

In terms of overall reaction to course, am not sure it is appropriate (or even possible in many ways) to eliminate "history" from the equation...which can sometimes be a real negative for a course (if it does not live up to its "history" it can end up being a huge disappointment).  And a course with great history really gets ones juices and adrenaline going before the round.

Net Net...for me (now) Royal Troon is a 7 as is Western Gailes.  Prestwick is an 8, pre-Trump Turnberry was a 6 or 7 and today's is a 9.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 09:53:10 PM by Paul Rudovsky »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2024, 02:13:46 PM »
Just back from a quick one night trip to play Turnberry and to see Troon again.


Troon really is what links golf is all about. It was said above that you could return from a trip to Scotland having played 10-15 courses and missing Troon would not leave you less educated about links golf whilst missing Prestwick would be a large gap.


It could be argued that this is the wrong way round. I love Prestwick equally; but it is famous for its variety and quirk that give a sense of adventure. Troon inspires a sense of battle that is the epitome of links golf. Like many other courses that appear less interesting on the surface, it actually has more kick-plates, nuances and choices than many of its more obvious, quirky counterparts.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2024, 05:20:32 PM »
Just back from a quick one night trip to play Turnberry and to see Troon again.


Troon really is what links golf is all about. It was said above that you could return from a trip to Scotland having played 10-15 courses and missing Troon would not leave you less educated about links golf whilst missing Prestwick would be a large gap.


It could be argued that this is the wrong way round. I love Prestwick equally; but it is famous for its variety and quirk that give a sense of adventure. Troon inspires a sense of battle that is the epitome of links golf. Like many other courses that appear less interesting on the surface, it actually has more kick-plates, nuances and choices than many of its more obvious, quirky counterparts.
+1


I enjoy Prestwick more but Troon is a fabulous test of golf and the lack of quirk should not be seen as a weakness. In that way it reminds me of Muirfield.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2024, 09:02:06 PM »
I’ve had multiple trips to play Prestwick and Royal Troon. I would play Prestwick again, any chance I could. I would never book Troon. It’s got one of the greatest holes in golf ,but otherwise it’s the least inspiring of the famous links for me. There are concepts I like, but not a lot of holes that I would pull ideas from.

It’s a 7 for me only because the 8th is worth an extra point. It might be golf’s best three.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2024, 09:04:44 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2024, 04:27:15 AM »
Sneaks into 8 = third least favourite modern Open rota venue only ahead of Royal Liverpool and RL&SA

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Which Confidential Guide grade do you give Royal Troon?
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2024, 08:00:43 AM »
I’m in the 6 camp. The first 4 holes are all basically the same and boring. Then it gets good for a bit in the middle. I didn’t find the closing stretch particularly inspiring either… 1 amazing hole, a few strong ones and more then a handful of snoozers doesn’t make a 7 in my book.