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Mike_Young

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GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« on: July 13, 2016, 09:39:41 PM »
Click on this site and see if you now understand golf now


http://jjkeegan.com/golfnow-rap-video-sell-boat-load-trade/


Be sure to watch the video
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2016, 09:33:14 PM »
Hats off to JJ Keegan for posting this drivel.  GolfNow sucks period.  They are offering nothing, while hurting many public courses.  Hopefully many of the courses see the light and get out.  The rap video makes me wanna puke. 

Doug Bolls

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2016, 09:50:30 PM »
I realize their business model from a consumer prospective is laser focused on the "Hot Deals" - they give the most reward points for hot deals and the entire rewards redemption program is only hot deals.

A few months ago, when GN was the focus of another thread, I asked several golf course operators why they continued to be affiliated with GN.  Their answer, to a person, was:  "GN increases my business - we would have fewer rounds if not for GN".

I have no dog in this fight - but, as a golf playing consumer, I can see why it's popular.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 03:12:30 AM »
I realize their business model from a consumer prospective is laser focused on the "Hot Deals" - they give the most reward points for hot deals and the entire rewards redemption program is only hot deals.

A few months ago, when GN was the focus of another thread, I asked several golf course operators why they continued to be affiliated with GN.  Their answer, to a person, was:  "GN increases my business - we would have fewer rounds if not for GN".

I have no dog in this fight - but, as a golf playing consumer, I can see why it's popular.


I can understand that it would increase greenfee numbers but does it increase profit? I suspect not.


Jon

Mike_Young

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 07:01:32 AM »
I realize their business model from a consumer prospective is laser focused on the "Hot Deals" - they give the most reward points for hot deals and the entire rewards redemption program is only hot deals.

A few months ago, when GN was the focus of another thread, I asked several golf course operators why they continued to be affiliated with GN.  Their answer, to a person, was:  "GN increases my business - we would have fewer rounds if not for GN".

I have no dog in this fight - but, as a golf playing consumer, I can see why it's popular.
Doug,
The real reason is they are scared not to be using them....there is nothing good about GolfNow...think about it...there business model is based on selling the times they traded...look at the revenues...they could care less about the course and they make golf a commodity...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 08:17:46 AM »
GolfNow stopped being relevant when they changed the ad campaign from the Old Tom commercials to the golf dinosaur commercials.

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 09:12:02 AM »
GolfNow stopped being relevant when they changed the ad campaign from the Old Tom commercials to the golf dinosaur commercials.


+1
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2016, 09:23:00 AM »
Clearly their sales team needs more training on the purpose of the NGCOA Guidelines for Online Distribution of Tee Time Reservations that GolfNow agreed to adhere to: https://www.pga.org/articles/guidelines-online-distribution-tee-time-reservations

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2016, 10:13:14 AM »
Clearly their sales team needs more training on the purpose of the NGCOA Guidelines for Online Distribution of Tee Time Reservations that GolfNow agreed to adhere to: https://www.pga.org/articles/guidelines-online-distribution-tee-time-reservations

NGCOA caved to them...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 10:14:02 AM »
Joining GolfNow is the first step to ruining your golf business.


1. Your price integrity is totally destroyed.
2. Your own members defect, to play your course at a cheaper price.


Just have an online booking system on your own website that the customer can click, book, pay and play.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Greg Tallman

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 10:49:19 AM »
Biggest problema with GolfNow is they do not share consumer data. they control it and use it AGAINST the facility. TeeOff.com is the exact opposite and they actually remit a % of the trade times sold back to the club while allowing the club to control/access the guest data base.

If you are going to go this route, go with TeeOff.com. Period. they will negotiate and make it work for both sides.

This is coming from the most anti-trade guy you'll ever find. TeeOff swayed me into giving them a try. GolfNow needs to be put to rest.

BCowan

Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2016, 11:08:28 AM »
Just have an online booking system on your own website that the customer can click, book, pay and play.

Adrian,

I agree and it makes the most sense.  What do you guesstimate this to cost as in ballpark? 

Greg Tallman

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2016, 11:26:42 AM »
Just have an online booking system on your own website that the customer can click, book, pay and play.

Adrian,

I agree and it makes the most sense.  What do you guesstimate this to cost as in ballpark?

To contract tee sheet services and online booking runs roughly $10K per year. That does include call center services and other options so the mom and pop version could be done for perhaps half that I would guess.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2016, 12:07:17 PM »
Just have an online booking system on your own website that the customer can click, book, pay and play.

Adrian,

I agree and it makes the most sense.  What do you guesstimate this to cost as in ballpark?
In the UK we use the BRS system, we are 36 holes and we pay a fraction over £1000 per year, this is the same system you get in the UK free if you go with GolfNow. We have a simple link to our website and about 60% of our bookings come from online, though it is mainly our members who have their own login and can check 24 hours a day course availabilty, that is a great plus. I would say only 1 visitor group books online per day. I did try teeofftimes but got 1 booking in 3 months, I did not discount our green fee price and I think if you want a lot of bookings its a case of how much you drop your price, punters like to see normal price £40 reduced to £18, unfortunately members see this and do the maths. I can't think of anything much stupider than to give 20% of your green fee revenue to TeeOff, 20% to Vat and then discount the green fee as well. We did much better putting our prices to £48 per round and keeping that price and keeping that money. After 1430 we do an afternoon rate at £36, members rate is £36, County Card £36 and we do 2-4-1s at 50% of our £72 day rate so £36.


We have a slightly different golf culture in the UK but the business principles must be the same except stack 'em high does not really work with golf and a quality product, so to me if you go on teeoff or GolfNow you have pretty much slagged off your course. Plenty do it though.


A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2016, 03:13:01 PM »
Just have an online booking system on your own website that the customer can click, book, pay and play.

Adrian,

I agree and it makes the most sense.  What do you guesstimate this to cost as in ballpark?
In the UK we use the BRS system, we are 36 holes and we pay a fraction over £1000 per year, this is the same system you get in the UK free if you go with GolfNow. We have a simple link to our website and about 60% of our bookings come from online, though it is mainly our members who have their own login and can check 24 hours a day course availabilty, that is a great plus. I would say only 1 visitor group books online per day. I did try teeofftimes but got 1 booking in 3 months, I did not discount our green fee price and I think if you want a lot of bookings its a case of how much you drop your price, punters like to see normal price £40 reduced to £18, unfortunately members see this and do the maths. I can't think of anything much stupider than to give 20% of your green fee revenue to TeeOff, 20% to Vat and then discount the green fee as well. We did much better putting our prices to £48 per round and keeping that price and keeping that money. After 1430 we do an afternoon rate at £36, members rate is £36, County Card £36 and we do 2-4-1s at 50% of our £72 day rate so £36.


We have a slightly different golf culture in the UK but the business principles must be the same except stack 'em high does not really work with golf and a quality product, so to me if you go on teeoff or GolfNow you have pretty much slagged off your course. Plenty do it though.

Adrian, While many give away the farm in such deals you paint with a rather broad brush. I am not all that displeased with the structure of our deal with TeeOff.com that includes no high season rounds, pricing set by us, exact time set by us, software, call center, hardware, website design and hosting, GPS App... and more. Unlike GolfNow TeeOff is willing to tailor their deals to work for all.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2016, 04:03:14 PM »
Every market is different, of course, but here in Phoenix (and there are several other big golf destination cities where this is true as well) the pressure is enormous simply because every other course is on the site. So, if you're not going to go wth GolfNow, you really have to be a big name course that can attract players directly to you. Otherwise folks just say, "Hm, I want to play Saturday. I'll log on to GN and see what's available."


Of the public options in Phoenix, the two main facilities not on GolfNow are WeKoPa and Grayhawk, easily two of the biggest 'name recognition' venues in town. They are able to get plenty of play based on their reputations alone. Both do have online booking options. Grayhawk offers high rack rates but a lot of "deals" off those rates. WKP has resident rates that are quite reasonable, especially at non-peak times.


Other than those places, only The 500 Club comes to mind as a public option not available through GolfNow in the area. That's a lovely little course, but it's not very busy when I visit most of the time. But of course there's a real question of whether the extra visitors will actually equate to more money coming in. Obviously 500 Club and other "mom and pop" places (not here necessarily) aren't so sure about that.


And of course that points to another issue, which is the sort of broad ownership and/or management of so many courses (again, especially true in Phoenix, I'm not totally sure how true it is elsewhere). When Troon/Palmer/OB Sports manage the vast majority of courses and all are signed up with GN, it also increases their share. To that point, though, it surprises me that an operation as seemingly formidable as Troon is signed up with GN, when it would seem they could offer most of the same themselves.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2016, 06:17:48 PM »
And of course that points to another issue, which is the sort of broad ownership and/or management of so many courses (again, especially true in Phoenix, I'm not totally sure how true it is elsewhere). When Troon/Palmer/OB Sports manage the vast majority of courses and all are signed up with GN, it also increases their share. To that point, though, it surprises me that an operation as seemingly formidable as Troon is signed up with GN, when it would seem they could offer most of the same themselves.

Well, if they did it themselves they would not get a rebate.....the management company scam is often a case of " we will lose you less than you lose yourself" for so many properties.  All typs of deals and GN makes separate deals w all of those guys...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff Fortson

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2016, 04:20:02 AM »
Send GolfNow an invoice for all no show tee times attributed to customers that book through them.  It will do a couple things...


A) Believe it or not, GolfNow will charge the customer and send you a check for any tee times booked and not used. 


B) The customer gets so pissed at GolfNow for charging them a "no-show" fee, they start booking directly with you. 


I am witnessing this happen firsthand.  One of my favorite conversations every week is the call from a GolfNow employee giving me shit over not letting their customer out of paying for the tee time they booked and didn't show for.  Hey, it's your customer GolfNow.  They book through you and you have an agreement with the course.  If GolfNow doesn't want to force their customer to pay for the round, that's fine with me.  One way or another, I will enjoy depositing that NBC Universal check for all the no-shows. 


Any course operators out there, don't let them BS you over this either.  They may make you jump a through a couple hoops to start collecting on no-shows, but they do pay courses for them.  I've collected thousands of dollars this way.  I feel bad for the customer to a point, but if you want to book a primetime tee time for 20-30% lower than rack rate and then no-show when I may have been able to sell that time?  My sympathy begins to diminish.
#nowhitebelt

Tom Fagerli

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 06:24:24 AM »
I watched the video and read the blog post. I sure am glad I gave up on my dream of being in the golf business and went to law school. This video does not represent golf to me, and I sure don't understand business today. $135 mil but missed your target? Seems to me the problem is bad goal setting.
When I have used GolfNow I have felt dirty, like I was cheating somebody. It is the owner mostly I am certain.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2016, 10:40:22 AM »
I watched the video and read the blog post. I sure am glad I gave up on my dream of being in the golf business and went to law school. This video does not represent golf to me, and I sure don't understand business today. $135 mil but missed your target? Seems to me the problem is bad goal setting.
When I have used GolfNow I have felt dirty, like I was cheating somebody. It is the owner mostly I am certain.
Tom,
You made the right move.  For a golf course owner to bring in GN while knowing that their business plan revolves around selling the 8 daily trade times is stupid.  And then for GN to get in bed with the management companies further screws the owner.  I don't know of many businesses where the main associations (PGA and GCSAA are employee organizations and the USGA, volunteer organization) try to run the show.  Anytime someone is running something with no skin in the game, it screws up....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2016, 10:46:13 AM »
In solidarity, I sent both a strongly worded email and a stern voicemail expressing my dissatisfaction and displeasure with GolfNow. I refuse to use their services unless and until the Old Tom commercials are brought back. Stand united!

I also know I can simply call a golf course and make my own tee time.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 10:52:28 AM by Brian Hoover »

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2016, 08:15:41 AM »
For the benefit of those less-informed, can someone please explain "trade rounds" and perhaps even GolfNow's business model? I just started using them in NoVa - booked one round each at Raspberry Falls and Bull Run. Both times I felt a bit of resentment from the folks behind the counter when checking in and wondered what it was all about.


Tim
Golf Club at Lansdowne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2016, 10:37:09 AM »
For the benefit of those less-informed, can someone please explain "trade rounds" and perhaps even GolfNow's business model? I just started using them in NoVa - booked one round each at Raspberry Falls and Bull Run. Both times I felt a bit of resentment from the folks behind the counter when checking in and wondered what it was all about.


Tim
Tim,
That guy behind the counter got zero dollars if you bought one of the GN deals or "trade rounds".  If you just happened to buy a normal tee time from the GN site and paid the golf course for the round then they got that money but you paid a fee to GN.  The business model is set up to sell the two tee times( 8 fees) they receive each day for offering the tee sheet.  This article may explain it further:   http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/pellucid/perspective_201607/#/2
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2016, 03:11:36 PM »
Tim--

Would be happy to explain this to you. I ran the NYC market for GolfNow for 2+ years before leaving to join a friendlier 3rd party distribution startup called Forelinx. I won't go into the details as commercialization of GCA is taken quite seriously here, but anyone interested in learning about it should feel free to reach out to me directly.

GolfNow uses the "barter" model--which is to say they offer the course operator the chance to trade an underutilized tee time in exchange for some shelf space in the giant digital WalMart that is GolfNow. The operator can put his inventory up on GolfNow at any rate he sees fit, but on the one "barter" time (all 4 players) GolfNow gets to price it however they want and collect 100% of the revenue generated. There are some exceptions to this (some courses have price floors or stack their trade times during the week, etc) but on the overall this is generally how it works. Some courses pay an extra trade time for technology (tee sheets, websites, etc.) or additional marketing.

The fact that GolfNow gets to price the tee time is where the rate integrity issue comes into play. A part of my job was to price the barter times in the NYC market and there was heavy pressure from above to try to make sure the barter round utilization percentage was as high as it could be. If a barter round went unsold, I generally had some explaining to do and had to justify my actions in pricing the time.

This naturally created an incentive to make sure that any unsold times on the day of play were dropped to the lowest possible rate. As you could imagine, course operators are not wild about watching their $60 rounds sold at $10 without their even getting a dollar of the $10. Some of this has changed recently as trade pricing is now much less manual than it used to be.

The resentment you are feeling from the operator comes mostly from the fact that you haven't paid him a dime--all of the revenue from a barter time goes straight to GolfNow. This is (mistakenly in my view) not at all obvious to the consumer--and frequently results in the customer berating the golf course operator when they are unwilling to offer the "Hot Deal" rate to the consumer at a different time.

I dealt with a lot of course operator resentment as well during my day-to-day work with GolfNow. Barter times in the NYC market could generate anywhere from $5,000-$35,000 per tee time in revenue for GolfNow--which is more than almost any vendor gets paid for anything when it comes to a golf course operation. Figures like that generate certain performance expectations from the operator--who feels like if GolfNow is getting $35,000 in value from the partnership that the course should get back equal value.

The hard part (from my perspective as the GolfNow rep) is that GolfNow's revenue is entirely incremental. The operator knows that 100% of the $5,000 to $35,000 that we were making off each of those trade times is NEW revenue to GolfNow and therefore a real increase in the bottom line for GolfNow. I could not (with any measure of intellectual honesty) say the same about the revenue that GolfNow generated for the course. It is impossible to determine the percentage of GolfNow revenue that would not have been made by the course but for GolfNow.

In many cases, a lot of this revenue is simply "channel shifting"--the customer that used to book through the phone is now booking through GolfNow. This is why you see the following phenomenon--the golf course operator who is being told that GolfNow generated $200,000+ worth of revenue for him while looking at his own P&L and seeing no REAL increase at all.

Moreover, operators rightfully worry about the degree to which barter rounds are displacing rounds that used to generate revenue for the course. Let's say that you're a golf course that gave me a trade time worth $30,000 and that 2/3rds of the revenue from that trade time is revenue that the course would have made but the consumer decided to book the cheaper trade time instead. Now, from the operator perspective, not only have you sold a bunch of rounds at well below-market rates--but you've done it in a way thats hijacked $20,000 that you otherwise would have made on your own. Now, the operator needs to see at least $20,000 in incremental revenue from GolfNow just to break even.

I could talk about this subject at length (and already have) but I'll close by pointing something out to any operator who cares about this. Unless you are stuck in a contract situation, you generally have a lot more leverage than you might think you do. GolfNow reps face a lot of scrutiny from above when they lose a golf course client (especially a big one) and will get the approval to make a lot of accommodations if it helps "save the business."

As stated, 100% of the barter round revenue they generate is "new" revenue to GolfNow. That also means they LOSE 100% of that revenue when the course quits. This is not true for the course at all--if you quit, you may well keep 95%+ of the revenue that GolfNow was "generating" for you.

I'm happy to discuss GolfNow with anyone who is interested or answer any questions people might have about GolfNow. It's a really polarizing topic in the golf industry and I'm happy to (within applicable legal boundaries) share my experience from the inside with anyone who asks.


Cory Lewis

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Re: GolfNow Conference video somehow got out
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2016, 07:05:02 PM »
Thank you Sam for laying out the GolfNow business model very well. 


The most frustrating thing for me with the trade times is when they show up 2 hours early and don't understand why they can't tee off.  I am constantly explaining that they paid a deeply discounted rate to play at their tee time and if they wanted to play earlier they should have paid more to book that time and that it's not fair to the customers paying full price to let somebody go early who is not paying full price.  It has resulted in some bad reviews online even though they had a good experience on the golf course.


It's even worse when they are 1+ hours late.  They see a deeply discounted rate at 11, know they can't make it until 12:30, go ahead and book the 11, show up at 12:30, then get really angry when I tell them they have have to pay the difference between what they paid and what the rate is now. 


I very much envy the courses in our market without GolfNow and wish that we could get rid of them, but we can't because all of our competitors use them.
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