Feature Interview with Jim Healey is posted...

[Ran Morrissett]

...along with his My Home Course entry on Glen Echo Country Club.

For many of us, golf course architecture is like a big puzzle, with a lot of the fun to be found in trying to understand how the different pieces fit together.

For instance, who did Macdonald influence? Who influenced Macdonald? How about Donald Ross? How did golf course architecture spread from the UK to the US and elsewhere? Once golf course architecture took hold in America, how did it then evolve?

Such questions and the permutations of answers are almost endless and thus, the subject matter of golf course architecture never seems to grow stale. If one remains open-minded, much can be learned. For instance, for me, key pieces have been added to the mix in the past 24 months including Tom MacWood's research showing the large shadow of Horace Hutchinson and Geoff Shackelford's uncovering of the timeless wisdom of Max Behr, whose shrewd words and thoughts remain as potent as ever.

And now comes along the Foulis brothers as captured in both Jim Healey's Feature Interview as well as his My Home Course entry on Glen Echo Country Club. In just the past couple of weeks since my introduction to Jim, I have gained a GREAT appreciation for this golfing family and what they meant to golf in this country during those very important first few decades of the 20th century. In his Feature Interview, Jim addresses the links/connections that the Foulis brothers had to many of the golfing greats, specifically relating for the most part to issues of golf course architecture.

Also, though I have only spoken with him by telephone, several people have told me how lucky we are to have Jim and his writing on this web site - I will take their word that Jim is one of the nicest guys in a game that seems to have the uncanny ability to attract such people.

All in all, hope you enjoy reading this month's Feature Interview and My Home Course entry as much I did in posting them.

Cheers,

[RJ_Daley]

Having been under the weather the last few days, and getting beyond bored with the same old back and forth yammering about the USGA vs ball and impliment manufactuers legal conflict, and everyone scrutinizing Geoff's writer's motives, and worse of all - suffering the 'off the cuff apparent morning hangover induced ill thought out insult post of the day' (otcamhiitoipotd) by our resident provacatuer, Barney;  I must thank Jim Healey for a wonderfully written and scholarly researched series of questions and answers, followed by a first rate "my home course" presentation.  I actually feel like I learned something reading Jim's contribution.  A fine remedy indeed for one who has been ailing.  

Perhaps the New Mexico gathering can discuss how we can all foster an atmosphere that somehow incourages continued contributions from dedicated and competent keepers of the game and chronologists of the history of its courses and their architects as Jim has demonstrated, and deminish certain unwarranted and belligerent off the cuff hostile eruptions (OTCHE) by comparison; we'd have an even better treehouse.

Thank you Jim Healey!

[T_MacWood]

Jim
Great job. What do you know of the connection between Willie Watson and the Foulis brothers? Watson is a fairly mysterious fellow, did you uncover anything new on him?

[Paul_Daley]

Jim: Many thanks for the tutorial on this large golfing family - its deeds, triumphs and legacy. Your passion for historical
tid-bits shone through, making the interview enjoyable and instructive.

[Ran Morrissett]

Jim,

As you know, I haven't played any Foulis courses   so I'm on thin ice here but in general, many architects like Ross and Bendelow had exposure to The Old Course at St. Andrews. Yet until Macdonald and NGLA in 1908, none of them built wild greens in the States (wild being defined as wild interior contours ala the 2nd, 12th, 14th etc. greens at The Old Course at St. Andrews).

Instead such men as Fownes and Leeds built greens with pitch in them (including the great front to back greens at Oakmont of course). Still, the lessons of wild interior green contours at St. Andrews didn't seem to travel well to the States.

In your Feature Interview, you note that the Foulis brothers built pitched greens as well as several multi-tiered greens and crowned greens. What would you say is their 'wildest' green? Are maintenance concerns being the relative lack of wild greens in the States from the 1890s through to 1908?

Cheers,

[ForkaB]

Ran

Perhaps Ross, et. al. honestly believed that understated greens with subtle borrows were a higher expression of GCA "art" and/or "craft" than ones relying on buried elephants for their interest?

[jimhealey24]

Jim,

As you know, I haven't played any Foulis courses   so I'm on thin ice here but in general, many architects like Ross and Bendelow had exposure to The Old Course at St. Andrews. Yet until Macdonald and NGLA in 1908, none of them built wild greens in the States (wild being defined as wild interior contours ala the 2nd, 12th, 14th etc. greens at The Old Course at St. Andrews).

Instead such men as Fownes and Leeds built greens with pitch in them (including the great front to back greens at Oakmont of course). Still, the lessons of wild interior green contours at St. Andrews didn't seem to travel well to the States.

In your Feature Interview, you note that the Foulis brothers built pitched greens as well as several multi-tiered greens and crowned greens. What would you say is their 'wildest' green? Are maintenance concerns being the relative lack of wild greens in the States from the 1890s through to 1908?

Cheers,

Ran:

Perhaps the wildest green(s) would fall into two categories; those was slopes and those with tiers.  Glen Echo and Normandie both have holes with tiers that are in the 2-3 foot range which run across the middle of the surface.  Regarding the slope greens, Lake Geneva's 13th, 5th and 6th, the 1st, 6th, 8th and 13th at Glen Echo and the 5th, 7th, 11th, 12th at Normandie all have fairly severe slopes.  From the back or middle of the greens, with the pin down below, it can be difficult to keep the ball on the green without the most delicate of touch. In Foulis' defense, most of these were designed before closely-cropped bent greens. Like many of Ross' greens, these challenge you to put your approach in the right location or pay the price. Second putts of 6-15 feet, thought usually uphill, are commonplace on many greens.

I would hesitate to call them wild, but they are rather challenging.  For those who have played Pinehurst, the uphill par-4 13th, is similar to a few of the Foulis' greens. Other greens at Pinehurst, like many of the Foulis',  have crowns that make your first putt a real adventure.

[jimhealey24]

I owe a debt of thanks for the Foulis article to Rick Holland, the infamous GCA member at Beverly CC.  Rick was tireless as we sought out Foulis family members and our countless phone calls to them were of real value. He is also working to get them on the ballot for the Illinois Golf HOF, as he and I both believe they are more than deserving of the honor.

Jim Healey

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jim,

Holland 'the imfamous GCA member'  He is a world class lurker here as I don't think he has ever posted!

Anyway I'm mad at him.  He called me last night at my hotel to tell me he wasn't coming to the Santa Fe GCA outing!

JC

[jimhealey24]

Tom Mac:

I didn't really explore the relationship between Watson and the Foulis', but it would be worth doing given the courses and the timeframe involved.

If Architects of Golf is accurate, Watson came over in 1898 to help Robert at Minikahda.  In 1898 there are only two William Watson who arrived from Scotland that I found in the ellis island records; one from Glasgow who was 34 years old, and the other from Skye who was 20. The both arrived on August 2 on different boats to New York.

Skye is an island north-northwest of Glasgow so both were in the gneral vicinity of Glasgow.  The 34 year old may have known Robert from Ranfurly castle GC from around 1890 when he was there.  The 20 year old is a bit more doubtful, but possible.  

Doubtful, given their other history, that Robert would have sent for watson if he knew him only by reputation - that is unless he knew Jim or Dave.  Regardless, it is only speculation. However, given that in 1898 Robert had already done two courses, Onwentsia and Town & Country in MN, and the fact that he partnered with few outside his family elsewhere, Watson would have had to be a good friend or strong referral from Old Tom, Macdonald or the like for Robert to work with him.

In an interview Robert gave in 1927 he doesn't mention Watson, though he does talk briefly about his days in Minnesota. When I was at Minikahda last fall they didn't tell me much about Watson, and they didn't know much about Robert Foulis.  I sent them photos and information about Robert for their archives.

Have you been able to uncover much / anything on Watson?  I saw where he partnered with sam Whiting at a couple of courses, any luck with his decendents? What about his days when Billy Bell worked for him, did he leave any references to his personal life?

Jim

[T_MacWood]

Jim
I haven't uncovered much on Watson, and what I have makes me wonder about the 1898 date. He is a mystery man.

I found a mention of a William Watson pro/greenskeeper at Nairn--a former asst. at St.Andrews.  7/1908

In 1911 an advertisement Willie Watson (formerly of St.Andrews) at the Hotel Raymond in Pasadena.

5/1912 Watson arrives in the US to redesign Westmoreland in Chicago. (I wonder if he made periodic trips back and forth like Willie Park)

12/1913 Bernard Darwin criticizes Onwentsia and the club hires Watson (the California expert) to redesign the course.

1913 Aleck Bauer mentions that in reconstructing Ravisloe he used the able advise of William Watson. He also thanks Watson for allowing him to use the drawings of famous British holes--he evidently had the copyright on these drawings that also appeared in Golf Montly (UK).

I suspect Watson arrived well after 1898 and that his involvement in Minnesota was after 1908.

[jimhealey24]

Tom Mac:

So you are less than convinced that he helped with the original 9 holes at Minikahda in 1898!  He did Interlachen in 1910 and Minikahda in 1906 with Foulis, at least according to Architects of Golf.  I had heard the Ravisloe comment previously as well.

Onwentsia's club history makes no mention of Watson's involvement in a redesign, but then it really doesn't mention many of the changes that took place.  In fact they attempt to assign the original design to C.B. Macdonald rather than the Foulis'.

If he was an assistant at St. Andrews then it all makes more sense.  Foulis would have done almost anything Old Tom asked of them.  If Watson were to come to the US, all Old Tom had to do was let Robert or Jim know and Watson would be welcomed.  That was what made the original Minikahda situation so plausable.

Do you have any idea where he was when he died?  Michigan would seem to be a logical assumption based on his last positions.

This sort of detective work make this so fascinating.  If Watson arrived after 1906 how could he have done Minikahda, yet why was this attributed to him?  Yet if he was there in 1898 for the original design, then why do many accounts only ascribe the 1906 second nine to him?

Jim

[T_MacWood]

Jim
I've read conflicting reports on Minikahda. I believe a recent club history states the nine hole course was built in 1899, designed by R.Foulis and Willie Watson. And that Watson was the first pro. It also says that Bob Taylor was the pro from 1900 to 1944. And that he assisted Foulis in 1907 when the 2nd nine was built. It seems strange to me that Watson was there only one year...I guess its possible. Is there any record of him in the states from 1900 to 1908? I wonder if his involvement at Minikahda would have been later around the time he was active at Interlachen and down in Chicago.

I don't know where he died...is he dead?! Just kidding. Michigan seems to be his last known location.

[jimhealey24]

Tom:

Even when the Open was played at Minikahda in 1916, only 2 amateurs from the club were the representatives...guess the pro wasn't a very good player.

It was fairly common for pros to move around quite a bit in those early days.  Here in St. Louis we had Fred McLeod, Jim Barnes, Willie Anderson, and a host of others at clubs for a year or so.  They just kept looking for that "right" position" for them.  We know he was at Interlachen in 1910, but as he never played in the Open, at least from the records available, we are unable to track his activities.  And using Georgiady's book on North American ClubMakers, it appears he never made clubs until he was at Belvedere and Charlevoix from 1924-28.  

The mystery continues.

Jim

[Buck Wolter]

Jim-
Wanted to give you a plug for your book 'Golfing Before The Arch' which this group would find very interesting, especially the section from 1896-1930.

Re: Glen Echo, I think GE is a very under-appreciated gem of a golf course. It is a terrific member's course that can appeal to players of all abilities and never gets boring.

I have seen the map you posted in the My Home Course section before but looked closely and wondered if you could comment on a couple things.

1.The map shows maybe 100 trees on the course itself, any idea if that's accurate? There are probably that many trees today one hole #1.  Is there any talk of bringing it back to that state? Currently Glen Echo is very over-treed and would improve immensely from a removal effort such as what's been posted here recently at Philadelphia CC in my humble opinion.

2. Any talk of bringing back the cross bunker on what's now #4 or adding any fairway bunkers? It seems related to having too many trees and by opening up the course and taking some of the trees out fairway bunkers could be added to great effect.


Thanks,
Buck

[jimhealey24]

Buck:

Thanks for the plug on GBA.

I agree with you that Glen Echo is over-treed.  Many of the trees between 15, 16 and 17 fairways were planted in the 1970's when Bill Hall was pro there, as he and I discussed that not long ago.  The trees between 17 and 18 fairways were planted around 1930, after the new clubhouse was built.  The grounds staff will be removing about 50 trees over the winter - mostly evergreens (or ever-brown as they've been fondly known) with a few others that will open up a few greens.  However, I wouldn't look for much more at this time.  I've asked them to remove many of the trees to the left of 14 that would open that up and give you a view of the lake from the tee, and have asked for the trees to the right of seven fairway be reduced.

As far the cross-bunkers, there were two primary ones - on the current 4th and 13th - all positioned about 50-75 yards short of the green. We have aerial photos of the one on 13 from the 1950's, but the one on 4 must have been replaced before that. There are currently 44 bunkers on the course, with four holes without bunkers - 2, 10, 11, and 15.

We all know much of the problems.  Members that don't really understand the relationship between trees, grass, sun and wind.  It's not rocket science and unfortunately, many of those in decision making at many area clubs don't have the foggiest as to what needs to be done.  

St. Louis, for example, is supposed to get a permit from the city of Ladue each time it cuts down a tree that is 6" in diameter or larger.  Algonquin has consistently had a grass problem, due to the narrow fairways and many trees, but there are those who would chain themselves to the trees rather than let the staff cut one down.

Glen Echo is considering some options, but much will be dictated by money at the present time.
Jim