RADYR GC's par-3 12th hole, with its 'banana' shaped green and severe drop-off

[Thomas Dai]

This par-3 is the 12th hole at a private club in the UK and is the work of a famous architect. It was built just prior to WWI.









The hole plays 157 yds from the back (white) tees. Immediately in front of the tee is a sunken public road. The banana shaped green is 37 yds long. To the right is a steep drop to a very wet/boggy area and a stream. Short left of the green is a copse of trees that is (very much) required to protect those on the next tee. The prevailing wind is against and from the left.


What do you reckon of the hole? Which club do you think it is and who do you reckon was the designer?


atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don't know, but have designed a handful of similar greens in my career, often also on shorter par 3 holes, and a few on par 5 holes.  They seem to be well liked and do offer some variety, if not in a steady diet.

[Bill_McBride]

Looks like fun.  The tee shot across the hedges is pretty unique except for the first at Cypress Point!


It might be even better if the left side was a little bit higher so you could bounce one in to access a right side pin.

[Thomas Dai]

Looks like fun.  The tee shot across the hedges is pretty unique except for the first at Cypress Point!
It might be even better if the left side was a little bit higher so you could bounce one in to access a right side pin.

It is fun Bill. Evil though. I watched quite a few players play the hole and only saw one tee shot hit the green, but then again a 3-to-4 club wind was blowing against and off the left side. With the internal banking the green plays very narrow. Not a hole to miss right or long and left.


I also reckon it would be nice to be able to bounce one on. Fairway or fringe HoC might be nice for a few yds short of the green.


Atb

[John Connolly]

I'm assuming the hedges are to screen the road and if that's the case, I suppose they can be tolerated. If they are merely "there," I would find them more objectionable. In either scenario, those to the right are too tall and could be trimmed down. Otherwise, it's a very sporty one-shotter. Very much like the sheer fall off to the right of green.

[Tom_Doak]

Thomas:


I like the hole.  It looks to me like something MacKenzie would have built, because of the length and shape of the green.  Looks like it would be a good reversible hole, too - coming in from the right, as seen in the last picture looking back down another fairway.  But I don't know the course.

[Thomas Dai]

Jon,


It's a single lane sunken public road so cars, pedestrians and horses and riders can use it so the hedges form protection. The section of hedge to the right over the lane does need a trim though.


Tom,


It's not a MacKenzie hole but it would certainly be a wonderful hole as a 'reversible' played from the angle you suggest.


Atb

[BCrosby]

I also like the hole, but that (new?) tree will triple in size in 20 years or so. How will that affect play?


My architect guess: Abercromby.


Bob

[Mark Pearce]

That little tree short right is horrible.  Otherwise it looks fun.  It looks familiar, so I think I may have played it but can't for the life of me place it.

[Ben Sims]

Maybe a better question, how different does this play from an Eden? An aside, it reminds me of ANGC #4.

[Thomas Dai]

BC and MP,


I agree about the tree. It is though pretty damp in the right-side hollow so I wonder if the tree is of a variety that will aid soaking, can't think of a better word just now, up some of the dampness. It's not Abercromby either. Good try though.


BS,


There is a certain element of similarity with an Eden. My recollection is that if you go long on the original Eden however, it's down a steep bank at the rear. With this hole there is no bank at the rear to go over and down. It's also a smaller green and the raised left-rear side not so pronounced. I can't comment in relation to the 4th at ANGC.


Atb

[Tim_Weiman]

Thomas:


I like the hole.  It looks to me like something MacKenzie would have built, because of the length and shape of the green.  Looks like it would be a good reversible hole, too - coming in from the right, as seen in the last picture looking back down another fairway.  But I don't know the course.

My thoughts exactly.

[Thomas Dai]

Tim,

As per reply to post above -

"Tom,
It's not a MacKenzie hole but it would certainly be a wonderful hole as a 'reversible' played from the angle you suggest."

Atb

[Tim Passalacqua]

It looks like a scary shot with the sharp drop off, but my favorite parts are the side and back boards.  My guess would be it plays easier than it looks with that extra help from the architect.  Is the back board playable?  Do shots feed down onto the green?

[Thomas Dai]

Tim,


Shots will feed back down from the outside edges of the green but you have to be pretty exact with your landing spot, not easy even from 150 or so yrds for average mortals, especially with a prevailing wind that's against and off the left and which you can't really feel the strength of when on the tee.


A ball just off the green will likely hold on the fringe. A soft knockdown draw (for a right-hander) to hold up against the prevailing wind would probably be the best kind of tee-shot.


The drop-off to the right is very severe, like 15ft or so, and the level of recovery shot difficulty is compounded by the soft, squishy ground that the ball is likely to be sitting on.


Atb

[Thomas Dai]

This UK par-3 with the banana shaped green is at RADYR GC on the northern edge of Cardiff, just a few minutes off the M4 motorway.

It's a Harry Colt course from 1912, although I think some of the Colt touches, particularly the green complexes, may have been softened over the years

A thoroughly nice members course. Pretty undulating terrain in places, though not a hard walk. Built on clay.


A UK Colt course I would compare it with would be Edgbaston, which I would rate a little higher. Radyr might not have the highs that Edgbaston has, especially the green complexes, but Radyr is a bit more consistent throughout, no real lesser holes, unlike Edg' which does have a couple.

I have loads more photos and will hopefully sometime do a GCA photo-tour once photo-bucket stops being silly.

For more see - http://www.radyrgolf.co.uk & also this for satmap - https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5140388,-3.2637839,19z/data=!3m1!1e3

Radyr is worth a visit, especially if you're a Colt fan. The 12th is certainly a hole worth playing, but so are all the others

Atb

[Frank Pont]

I've been working with Radyr over the last year and a half, and although I originally had my doubts if the 12 th banana green was original, it shows up in the earliest aerial pictures that we have of the course.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxb2qauj7iyz8a2/1941-small.jpg?dl=0

Thomas is right that a number of the greens have been changed over time, and the routing has changed a bit as well but there are still a lot of very good holes out there. The old aerial also shows how much tree planting has been done since WWII.

Work so far has focused on bringing back the original mowing lines, removing some of the trees that clearly were not in place on a Colt course and doing a medium term course plan focusing on bunkers and some routing issues.

[Jordan Standefer]

Thomas,

I had to do a double take because I've played a green almost exactly like this in Palm Springs, CA.  Also a par-3.

Escena GC #12


View from back right


The green is almost shaped exactly the same, with the exception of the right hand side is set 4-5 feet below the left.  (This hole plays a bit longer, as well.  202 yards from the most popular tees.)  The bunker in the elbow makes for an interesting hazard, too.

I find it to be a very interesting hole and one I look forward to every time I play there.

[Thomas Dai]

Frank,


Thank you for this. I didn't realise you were involved at Radyr but one thing that did impress me was the tree management. Many open views across the course. Few avenues of trees, mainly copses. Greens without shade. Areas around tees, greens and along fairways for airflow and sunlight.


The old aerial photo is fascinating. I did have a look around the Clubhouse and noticed that there was once a 9-hole short course in the centre of the then main course.


Some rather unusual features at Radyr. For example, the way the roadway across the par-4 17th is treated.


Radyr also has several very fine views over the city of Cardiff, down towards the Principality Stadium and even across the Bristol Channel towards England.


I am aiming at a return visit next year and look forward to seeing how the work you and Radyr are doing is progressing. Good luck with it.

Jordon,


Wow, thanks for highlighting the Palm Springs green, that is one severe semi-circle, and with a rise in the middle as well. The curve on the PS green is much more 'curvy' than the Radyr 'banana'.

Atb


 

[Sean_A]

Damn if this green doesn't look the spitting image of Players Club Stranahan's 17th.  The green is kidney shaped with a false front leading to a large depression on the right of the green. 




Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I reckon you'd quite like Radyr Sean. One of the better inland courses I've seen for a while tree wise.


The 18th Arnold Palmer's Bay Hill was the green that came to mind when it saw this and also the 17th at Carne, although these are different sort of holes both being par-4's.


Paging Adrian for thoughts on the similarity between the 12th at Radyr and the 17th on the Stranahan.


Atb

[Ben Stephens]

I reckon you'd quite like Radyr Sean. One of the better inland courses I've seen for a while tree wise.


The 18th Arnold Palmer's Bay Hill was the green that came to mind when it saw this and also the 17th at Carne, although these are different sort of holes both being par-4's.


Paging Adrian for thoughts on the similarity between the 12th at Radyr and the 17th on the Stranahan.


Atb

Sean and Thomas,


I think the 17th on Stranahan and 2nd on Composite championship course layout (original 2nd) was a boomerang green.


Adrian will probably put forward his input regarding this


Cheers
Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have played Radyr but cant actually remember that green.


17th on The Stranahan wraps around a hollow that we keep at apron height 9mm so you can putt out of it. We originally had green on the other side of the hollow as well, so it was like a choice of A or B green (we haven given up now) it was also cojoined at the top by a couple metres.


Probably not one of my best ideas, but the best learning is from mistakes.


As it is now, it is a great green defended soley by the right hand hollow about 1 metre deep.


I am amazed at Mr Arble's memory and how much he is able to take in on one visit.

[Sean_A]

Adrian


Its a lot easier to remember courses I like  [size=78%].[/size]


Ciao