It's all happening in Sydney - R. SYDNEY SELECTS GIL HANSE

[Scott Warren]

Plenty of renovation news in Sydney:

* Concord has announced that Renaissance/Doak will complete a full redesign in 2017/18. It was put to me that the whole course will be redone between winter 2017 and Autumn 2018. Seems fast so detail may be wide of the mark (and there was alcohol being served at the time...).

* Royal Sydney interviewed five or so architects in the past month, most US-based, and are expected to announce a complete rebuild and the architect who will do it in the next couple of weeks. Am told there is no chance of taking the little Centenary course land for the main course (which struggles for space) as it's too well-used to do without. With 6,000 club members, almost half of whom play golf, I guess that's understandable! Gil Hanse was in town a few weeks back so I guess he is one of the candidates.

* Stage 3 (back paddock) well underway at Bonnie Doon under OCCM's hand. This was always the most compromised, tight, monotonous part of the old layout so high hopes that what's created is as good as it looked in master plan and now looks in rough shaping.

* Coincidentally, all three of the above are undoing Ross Watson redesign work less than 15 years old!

[Mark Pavy]

Nothing personal Scott, but here's my thoughts:

*Concord/Doak- extremely funny in some sort of perverted architectural sense.

*Royal Sydney- Waste of money, but, they have heaps so they might as well waste it however they please.

*BD- Looking forward to playing the course once completed- potential to become No1 in Sydney from what I've seen in pics.

*Ross Watson- There's two more courses he designed that I'd love to fix, one in particular has enormous potential, I'm surprised the name architects aren't knocking down the door with proposals.

[Greg Gilson]

Thanks Scott.

Mark, I pretty much agree with your comments.

My personal curiosity most surrounds the Concord/Renaissance project. I am guessing Tom is unable/unwilling to comment here about why he took that job. However, for the life of me, I cannot see what can be made of that site. Its a friendly & welcoming club (until they read these comments, maybe) but the course is home to some of the least memorable holes in the country. There is 1 memorable hole , however - the crowning glory is #13...short dogleft left par 4 with OOB down the right. You basically have to hit it into some guy's front yard to get any kind of angle to the green. Maybe I get it now why Renaissance took the gig...its a low bar to clear! Good luck Tom.

[Scott Warren]

I disagree that the Concord and Royal Sydney jobs are to be laughed at.

Both pieces of land are the same size as Bonnie Doon, give or take five acres, and all three properties have similar boundary constraints.

Concord has good, sloping terrain and Royal Sydney is on wonderful soil with some nice land around the perimeter (where the current front nine is routed) and, critically, both clubs are very well resourced financially.
 
There's no insurmountable impediment to building very good golf courses on both of them, particularly if they select a great architect (and Concord already has done that).

Sydney will never compete with the Sandbelt, London or New York for the quality of golf courses, but it's great that the established clubs here are committed to moving in the right direction architecturally.

[Greg Gilson]

Scott, I am not laughing at these projects. I also agree that Concord has pulled the correct rein (finally) in terms of who they have engaged to do the job. Its also great to see a club apparently prepared to do the job right, rather than tinkering around the edges.

However, I don't think that just because Concorde has $ and an appropriate size allotment that its a likely candidate for 1 of the county's top courses. I have only played the course a few times but i found the terrain uninspiring and , from what I recall, the soil not to be great for golf...but I am no expert in either category.

I am sure Renaissance will do as good a job as is do-able and I am curious , as I said in my initial post, to see what the result is. I just think its a pig's ear unlikely to become a silk purse.

But, good luck, Tom!

[Rob Clisdell]

Not sure why these projects would be considered to be a waste of money? What is GCA all about if not extracting the best golfing experience out of a given piece of land. Kingston Heath, Riviera and Merion instantly spring to mind as examples of where an archie has delivered thrilling and strategic golf on otherwise somewhat flat and/or tight parcels of land. There are dozens of other examples. As mentioned by Scott, Royal Sydney has excellent sandy soil from which to carve out a really, REALLY good golf course. I reckon whoever gets the job will be licking their chops at what they might be able to create there. 

[Tom_Doak]

My personal curiosity most surrounds the Concord/Renaissance project. I am guessing Tom is unable/unwilling to comment here about why he took that job. However, for the life of me, I cannot see what can be made of that site. Its a friendly & welcoming club (until they read these comments, maybe) but the course is home to some of the least memorable holes in the country. There is 1 memorable hole , however - the crowning glory is #13...short dogleft left par 4 with OOB down the right. You basically have to hit it into some guy's front yard to get any kind of angle to the green. Maybe I get it now why Renaissance took the gig...its a low bar to clear! Good luck Tom.

I talked to two or three clubs in Australia last year who wanted to hire us, and felt the need to remind them that we do not automatically build top ten courses wherever we go.  Our track record in Australia and New Zealand is only that good because we've worked on some unbelievable sites.


That said, we work where people want to hire us, and Concord was very persistent in wanting to hire us.  And we think we can make some very good improvements, by re-routing a couple of holes and giving them a great set of greens.  If someone objects to that, that's their problem.

[Greg Gilson]

Tom, thanks for chiming in. I am a reciprocal member at Concord & cannot wait to see it after you are finished!

[Scott Warren]

Gil Hanse has been chosen for the Royal Sydney redesign:

http://www.planetgolf.com/index.php?id=1920

[Niall C]

Can I ask a fairly pointed question about money, how much are these projects likely to cost the clubs and what impact will the projects have while the work is ongoing ? By that I mean, will the whole course be closed for a period of time ?


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Can I ask a fairly pointed question about money, how much are these projects likely to cost the clubs and what impact will the projects have while the work is ongoing ? By that I mean, will the whole course be closed for a period of time ?


Niall

Niall:


Concord's membership has gone back and forth about whether to close the course and do the project all at once, or to break it into two nine-hole sections.  Obviously, for an American architect, stretching out the project over another year is not very appealing ... and when we have taken this approach in the States, usually the membership regrets making the project drag on so long.  So we have convinced Concord to close [except for their clubhouse, which will remain open for dinner etc.] and do the work as quickly as possible.


I have not heard a final number for the work proposed.  Keep in mind that often, when closing, clubs decide to do a lot of infrastructure work that isn't really part of the redesign project, so the numbers do tend to rise due to "mission creep."

[Anthony Butler]

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[Anthony Butler]

I talked to two or three clubs in Australia last year who wanted to hire us, and felt the need to remind them that we do not automatically build top ten courses wherever we go.  Our track record in Australia and New Zealand is only that good because we've worked on some unbelievable sites.


That said, we work where people want to hire us, and Concord was very persistent in wanting to hire us.  And we think we can make some very good improvements, by re-routing a couple of holes and giving them a great set of greens.  If someone objects to that, that's their problem.

Tom - I hope one of the clubs talking to you is St. Michaels.. that site has the most potential of any existing club in Sydney.

While I don't think the collective quality of Sydney courses will ever go that high, the 'Sandbelt' mystique pulls a couple of the second tier Melbourne clubs above where they should be ranked... The Moonah course at The National is better than all but a handful of Melbourne courses IMHO.  St. Michaels, if it ever gets redone, and the finished course at Bonnie Doon would fit comfortably into the top 25 clubs in the country..

[Anthony Butler]

I talked to two or three clubs in Australia last year who wanted to hire us, and felt the need to remind them that we do not automatically build top ten courses wherever we go.  Our track record in Australia and New Zealand is only that good because we've worked on some unbelievable sites.


That said, we work where people want to hire us, and Concord was very persistent in wanting to hire us.  And we think we can make some very good improvements, by re-routing a couple of holes and giving them a great set of greens.  If someone objects to that, that's their problem.

Tom - I hope one of the clubs talking to you is St. Michaels.. that site has the most potential of any existing club in Sydney.

While the collective quality of Sydney courses will ever go that high, the 'Sandbelt' mystique pulls a couple of the second tier Melbourne clubs above where they should be ranked... The Moonah course at The National is better than all but a handful of Melbourne courses IMHO.  St. Michaels, if it ever gets redone, and the finished course at Bonnie Doon would fit comfortably into the top 25 clubs in the country..

[Scott Warren]

Tom, Niall:

The top 10-15 Sydney clubs are very good at looking out for each other during periods of redesign work and I have no doubt that Concord members will get access to some good golf while the course is closed but it's still not like 200 golfers are getting a game somewhere else every Saturday and Sunday for nine months. 

It's a significant sacrifice for the membership to make but such a great move that I think they will thank themselves for.

Bonnie Doon on the other hand began a renovation in winter 2011 that won't be complete until autumn 2019 -- we've avoided going into debt for the entire exercise but it's the antithesis of what Concord has opted to do and carries its own downsides, primarily a lack of BANG when he work is complete because by Autumn 2019, the first of the holes redesigned will be seven years old!

[Josh Stevens]

It is very exciting, as long as the clubs are realistic in their expectations. 

All three courses are roughly the same area - about 100 acres, when considering only the course and excluding club house and practice facilities. About the same as Merion, but makes Kingston Heath look spacious at 113 acres.

Bonnie and Concord are presumably aiming at just being good members courses, but RS is hosting the Australian Open this year and will clearly want to continue to do so.  It will be a challenge and I can see the temptation to want to steal some of the short course acreage.

[Alan Ritchie]

Anthony, Ive been a member member at St michaels for the last few years and couldn't agree more. The course has been very disjointed and has suffered from bad design decisions but the potential is definitely there for a really good course. they are doing some new work that has been improving the course and I hope it continues.

I just wonder what the good doctor would have done if he carried on down the hill from NSW!

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott is BD just employing a man with a shovel, rake and bag of grass seed?

[Josh Stevens]

As I understand it, the BD reno involved them getting access to a new piece of land to the west of the main paddock, on which they could build a couple of new holes.
The implication then is that with a bit of jiggling, rather than shutting the place down for a year, they were able to keep almost a full 18 holes of some sort open for play during the whole process.  yes it took longer, but  financially I imagine it would have made sense and politically easier to sell, especially to older members who perhaps only had a few playing years left.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony, Ive been a member member at St michaels for the last few years and couldn't agree more. The course has been very disjointed and has suffered from bad design decisions but the potential is definitely there for a really good course. they are doing some new work that has been improving the course and I hope it continues.

I just wonder what the good doctor would have done if he carried on down the hill from NSW!

Alan... Let me ask you this. Do you happen to know the ownership status of St. Michael's property? As you probably know NSWGC is unusual insofar as was established as a private club on what was then land owned by the Army, who took the course back by public domain during WWII.. Several decades ago, it passed from the Federal Government control to NSW Parks and Wildlife's management. The club leases the property for around $300-500k per year.. With everything going through the government for approval, that means re-routing of the course has been off the table since the late 80s. (The club has a 1975 letter from Bruce Crampton where he proposes building two holes east of No.5 and re-siting the clubhouse right onto the ocean. Also included was the idea of a 100 yard long salt-water swimming pool dynamited out of the rocks!)

Dealing with today's reality, it took over two years simply to rebuild the bridge to the 'island tee' on the 6th hole after it was destroyed in a storm. Now they want to move the green site about 8 yards closer to the water.. thankfully executing even that plan has proved to be challenging since it's a stupid idea.   

A similar situation at St Michaels would limit the scale of any redesign. That said, you could improve the course 100% simply by redoing the current green sites and moving some of the tee boxes to accommodate new angles into the greens. 

P.S. If Mackenzie had visited the property, St. Michaels would have been a lot better... If you think about NSW, it's not a regular piece of property, at least for a golf course.. it's really three different landforms, the 'bowl' near the clubhouse, the open field where 4, 8, 12, and parts of 13, 15 1& 16 are laid out, then the coastal area where you'll find 5-7 and 13-15. Mackenzie put together a routing and topographical map based on two visits to the course that lasted a total of 5 hours.. Without a formal land survey as reference, his topographical map was no more than 3' feet at any point on the course.

St. Michaels is a contiguous piece of property and more well suited for a golf course. In those days they would have been able to build a couple of holes closer to the ocean as well.. 

[Alan Ritchie]

I'm not actually sure of the land ownership but I don't think we would have the same constraints as NSW. There are already plans to redo all of the 18 greens that I hope will lead to a big improvement.. Many of them due to be made considerably larger ( notably 1 and 10). Major work will also start later in the year on 16 with re-contouring of the fairway and moving the green back closer to the pond. good bunkering decisions have been made on the par 3 15th so I think it's heading the right direction. obviously we don't have the budget of the more elite sydney clubs but I think the changes made will have a significant impact.

Would have been interesting to see what packer/ Norman would have done had their bid a number of years back been successful

[Josh Stevens]

The use of public land for private clubs is that uncommon in Australia and also the UK in spots.  The Lakes and Bonnie Doon are both on public land, almost all of Perth's private clubs are on public land as are the likes of Swinley Forest, The Berkshire, Sunningdale etc.

The restrictions in general very much depend upon what the land is like and what government agency is nominally charged with supervising its use.   

The Lakes in Sydney is vested in the Water Corporation I think, and is a small piece of land of little environmental value hemmed in by freeways and 747s so clearly they had no issue with Mike Clayton cutting down a few thousand trees.  NSW on the other hand is a National Park on the cliff tops, with glorious views and quite a fragile ecosystem.  I suspect that while St Micks are probably not national park, they may face some of the same delicate issues.

[Scott Warren]

Scott is BD just employing a man with a shovel, rake and bag of grass seed?

And a chainsaw. A really fucking big chainsaw.

As I understand it, the BD reno involved them getting access to a new piece of land to the west of the main paddock, on which they could build a couple of new holes.
The implication then is that with a bit of jiggling, rather than shutting the place down for a year, they were able to keep almost a full 18 holes of some sort open for play during the whole process.  yes it took longer, but  financially I imagine it would have made sense and politically easier to sell, especially to older members who perhaps only had a few playing years left.

The motivation to stage the BD reno over such a long period was entirely financial. Not needing to go into debt or levy the members.

[Anthony Butler]

The use of public land for private clubs is that uncommon in Australia and also the UK in spots.  The Lakes and Bonnie Doon are both on public land, almost all of Perth's private clubs are on public land as are the likes of Swinley Forest, The Berkshire, Sunningdale etc.

The restrictions in general very much depend upon what the land is like and what government agency is nominally charged with supervising its use.   

The Lakes in Sydney is vested in the Water Corporation I think, and is a small piece of land of little environmental value hemmed in by freeways and 747s so clearly they had no issue with Mike Clayton cutting down a few thousand trees.  NSW on the other hand is a National Park on the cliff tops, with glorious views and quite a fragile ecosystem.  I suspect that while St Micks are probably not national park, they may face some of the same delicate issues.

I have amended my post to indicate the NSW was originally constructed on land owned by the Australian Army. In that respect it is somewhat unique.. Considering the first three club presidents were all General ______ it sounds like getting the club established at that location was a bit of an inside job...

Considering the course was turned back into an Army base from 1941-1945 in that respect it similar to Turnberry, whose fairways were paved over for runways in WWII. I wonder if Trump actually owns the land under the course now.. ?

He seems to value all his leaseholds like he owns the property..