Sick of TV influence

[Rick Shefchik]

I have not seen it but it is unclear to me what the issue is.  Unlike the DJ ruling which in my view involved a poorly written rule, if the descriptions are accurate this one is a straight up breach of a rule that has been around for as long as I can remember.  Anyone who plays in a stroke play, especially for a living, event knows you cannot brush sand on the backswing.   

Using video evidence to determine whether a breach occurred has been around for quite awhile.

How did the USGA screw this one up?

Jason, here's where I thought they screwed it up. I believe the Fox announcers were talking about a potential penalty soon after the players hit their drives on the third playoff hole (I could be wrong, but that's my recollection.) They had to have been talking about it for a minimum of five minutes before it was brought to Nordqvist's attention -- and that was after her third shot, but before Lang's third shot. So, two things:


A. We all knew there was going to be a penalty assessed. Why didn't the USGA react faster and stop play to sort things out?


B. Even if they were slow on the trigger, they were absolutely unfair to Nordqvist by informing her after she'd played her third shot, while Lang had played just two. Lang couldn't have changed clubs faster after getting the news.

[Sean_A]

I have not seen it but it is unclear to me what the issue is.  Unlike the DJ ruling which in my view involved a poorly written rule, if the descriptions are accurate this one is a straight up breach of a rule that has been around for as long as I can remember.  Anyone who plays in a stroke play, especially for a living, event knows you cannot brush sand on the backswing.   

Using video evidence to determine whether a breach occurred has been around for quite awhile.

How did the USGA screw this one up?

I don't think the USGA screwed up either situation based solely on the rules.  However, I think flaws in the rules and how they were administered were exposed on both occasions.  The "DJ Rule" is crazy...having to disprove you caused the ball to move...its reverse logic. Plus, a guy can definitely cause a ball to move by moving near the ball, but should that be a penalty?  Not in my view it shouldn't.  I don't think there is an easy solution for the DJ Rule. Perhaps the USGA should simply stop cutting greens so short and they wouldn't find themselves in these impossible positions enforcing bad rules. 


My only beef with the bunker call is it required tv replay to enforce the rule.  Since this technology isn't available for all shots, I don't believe it should be used for any shots.  Each situation should be treated like for like.  What other sport do you know that only uses tv replay randomly?  There are rules on how, when and why tv replay can be used for rules enforcement...golf is lacking this aspect of structure.


Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

Fox saw the infraction because they is super slow motion zoomed in. Why would they do that unless they were looking to find a rules infraction. Will every shot of consequence be scrutinized the same way?

[Will MacEwen]

Fox saw the infraction because they is super slow motion zoomed in. Why would they do that unless they were looking to find a rules infraction. Will every shot of consequence be scrutinized the same way?

Lots of bunker shots get that treatment so that after they can show if it was a little thin or fat. I think that is the most likely explanation.


Of course if you are correct, the player certainly invited them to watch by hovering the club dangerously close to the sand.

[mike_beene]

Maybe the rules of golf just don't fit our live and let live everybody gets a trophy right and wrong are different for different people society. Rules are for fundamentalists. Maybe that is why golf is good for people. It is a penalty to ground your club. Doesn't matter if it seems to improve the situation. The fair comes in October. She is not the victim here. She is not Dustin Johnson. The burden should not shift to the USGA. Don't ground your club. TV can help you find your ball, or see a penalty.

[Ken Moum]

Maybe the rules of golf just don't fit our live and let live everybody gets a trophy right and wrong are different for different people society. Rules are for fundamentalists. Maybe that is why golf is good for people. It is a penalty to ground your club. Doesn't matter if it seems to improve the situation. The fair comes in October. She is not the victim here. She is not Dustin Johnson. The burden should not shift to the USGA. Don't ground your club. TV can help you find your ball, or see a penalty.

Precisely.


As my favorite golf writer noted, the game was invented by a bunch of Calvinists.


Where I play, almost no one plays the ball  as it lies, they contend that the courses aren't in good enough condition to do it. They're wrong, because I only move the ball if I think I'm going to get hurt, and that happens about once a summer.


I've told several Scots about that, and the typical response is quizzical look and, "That's na golf."


They play the ball down in scrambles, for pete's sake.


K

[Jeff Fortson]

I've been fortunate enough to have had an opportunity to spend some time with Anna Nordqvist and her parents over the last few years.  I certainly wouldn't say that I know her well or that we are friends, but my experience in spending time with her gives me a sincere bias in believing that she absolutely had no clue she had grounded her club.  Her response when the official came out to tell her looked more like someone in shock than guilt, IMO.


There is no question she violated the Rules (unknowingly IMO) and the Rules were applied appropriately.  I think the timing of how both competitors were informed of the ruling could have been handled much better but otherwise what should have happened rules-wise, happened.  I think Anna showed great class in how she handled a very unfortunate and heartbreaking situation.


As for the Award presentation, if I were on the Board of the USGA, I'd be kindly asking Ms. Murphy to let someone else takeover for her presentation duties for the remainder of her tenure as President.  Scott Percy?  Bethany Lang?  She has seemed both awkward and at times intoxicated at both the men's and women's US Opens.  She gets a massive "F-", "0.0 GPA" in awards presentation.

[MCirba]

Admittedly, I was only in a twosome, but we played 18 holes in 2 hrs 26 minutes yesterday.
We were required to have a cart, but it was cart-path only.

Also, I thought we were playing too slowly and expected a ranger to tell us to speed up.

Bob,

Isn't it funny how that is?   I've walked a number of courses unimpeded in about 2.5 hours on average, and that feels about right if it's a course laid out suitable for the purpose.

A friend and I walked and played 135 holes of golf in England and Scotland last fall in four days.   About half the rounds were with friends from GCA joining along.   The longest round was the morning at Muirfield  in 40-50 mph winds that took 3 hours because the 7th hole (our 16th) backed up as it was virtually unplayable into a gale to a perched green and a local rule requires players to drive off the 8th tee before play commences on the 7th.   Most of the rounds averaged around 2.5 hours.

The best was the last day at Lytham.   We stayed in the Dormie House and as some weather was predicted by mid-morning we hoped to get off first.   Instead we were told that a fivesome of members had the privilege and we anticipated the worst.   

I don't think we saw them again after about the 4th or 5th hole, and we finished in 2.5 hours!   Now that's incredible!

That's why it's frankly unimaginable to me that a round on tour should take over 5 hours, and it provides the absolutely worst example for how people think the game should be played.   Egads.

If anything would "grow the game" in the US it would be focusing on a reasonable speed of play.   It's much easier to rationalize a few hours away on a weekend morning or evening than it is for a round of golf to virtually encompass the length of a workday.

[Bruce Katona]

MCirba:

Per your post above, a question:


Did you putt out on each hole for was it match play.  No matter but just curious.


BK

[MCirba]

MCirba:

Per your post above, a question:


Did you putt out on each hole for was it match play.  No matter but just curious.


BK

Hi Bruce;

We'd putt out.

Even our afternoon round at Muirfield turned into simply stroke play as we were unable to fill a fourth spot so we couldn't play the traditional alternate shot format.   In those winds I doubt the club cared much about that breach, as long as we didn't hold up play or get blown into the Firth.

But to stay on point here...five hour rounds...that's the influence of TV that I'm sick of, frankly.

[mike_beene]

I consider myself a fast player but I don't understand how you can play a round faster than 3:20 without it becoming a track meet with people hitting at the same time and not reading greens. I can't stand slow play but what is the rush? I get irritated over four hours but winded at 3:15 plus pick up putts to do it. I have no clue how someone can play under 3 hours.

[Sean_A]

I too am amazed by the speed of play, but then I absolutely detest being hurried on the golf course.  I spose 2.5 hours for a 2ball isn't uber fast, but I do wonder what the rush is when on holiday.  That said, 3:20 for a 2ball is slooooow.  I would think on the right courses a 4ball can be pushed thru in that sort of time.  I generally hope for

2ball = 2:45-3
3ball = 3-3:30
4ball = 3:15-3:45

Much quicker than these sorts of times makes me feel like I have a train to catch.

Ciao

[MCirba]

Sean & Mike,
As mentioned, most of those days we were trying to play a lot of golf so perhaps our pace was a bit quicker than we might have doing simply 18 holes.   Day 3 we played Renaissance Club at crack of dawn, drove to Musselburgh and played the old nine holer, and then back to Gullane #1 where we met up with Martin Bonnar and had a magical 18.

Thankfully, it wasn't summer or we almost certainly would have proceeded to North Berwick for an evening round.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I consider myself a fast player but I don't understand how you can play a round faster than 3:20 without it becoming a track meet with people hitting at the same time and not reading greens. I can't stand slow play but what is the rush? I get irritated over four hours but winded at 3:15 plus pick up putts to do it. I have no clue how someone can play under 3 hours.

We play a regular Saturday am 4-ball in 3 hours and have done so for years.
With caddies who each carry two bags.


Yes, we putt out everything unless it is a true gimmee as in inside the real leather.
No, we do not rush.
Yes, we are of varried abilities. HDCP: 0, 4, 9, 14
Course plays at 6550 yards. Not long, not short.


If we dont get the right caddies to carry "doubles", we get single caddies.
I have documented extensively here how this is possible. It boils down to NOT watching and waiting on others. While no one is playing out of turn, we are getting yardage, picking a club and going through our routines WHILE others are doing the same.


We also do not take 35+ seconds on our pre-shot routines either.
To a man, we are all at 18-25 seconds and, over a round with 4 players, that can really add up - or, in our case, lessen the time.


1. Take 20 seconds to hit a shot
2. Be ready when it's your turn.


= Being able to play a 3 hour 4-ball at a conversational pace.

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe I just don't know how to time how long a round takes because I just went to Scotland and waited on the group in front of me on every shot. I think a bunch of you guys go from tee time to 18th tee.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Maybe I just don't know how to time how long a round takes because I just went to Scotland and waited on the group in front of me on every shot. I think a bunch of you guys go from tee time to 18th tee.

Yup. I have played Castle Stuart twice in the past two years and each time was in 5 hours behind "local players".


My take: when you pay your green fees and then the starter hands you a logo-ed tartan pouch that contains: yardage book, 4 tees, ball mark and divot tool, it might as well also include a card that says:


"Now that you have paid $300 for a round here, please enjoy these silly gifts to help make you feel better about being charged such egregious fees. Additionally, take your time on our fare course as, like we said, you've paid for it."....