Are Returning Nines Inconsistent with True Links Golf?

[JWinick]

One thing I really enjoyed about my recent trip to Ireland was the opportunity to play courses without returning nines.   While I do like returning nines for a member course, there is something about the journey out and journey back that I like.   I have heard some suggest that a true links course cannot have returning nines.   Is that true?  Discuss.

[Alex Miller]

One thing I really enjoyed about my recent trip to Ireland was the opportunity to play courses without returning nines.   While I do like returning nines for a member course, there is something about the journey out and journey back that I like.   I have heard some suggest that a true links course cannot have returning nines.   Is that true?  Discuss.

A great question!


Off the top of my head, of the 3 favorite golf courses I've ever played (world top 10's) 2 are full fledged links and the other nearly one.


The journey out and back plays a large role in 2 of them, and the change in environment plays a key role in the experience of the other. Another favorite, Bandon Trails, also has a great sense of adventure thanks to a routing that meanders and does not return.


North Berwick, not referenced above, is one of my favorites as well. And I professed my love for Elie in the other thread. No returning 9's enhances the journey and I think specifically adds a sense of adventure to the experience. At my home club though I am very happy to have returning 9's and loops of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 holes that I can play.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well I guess this means we can scratch Rye from the list of true links. They did install an irrigation system though so they had it coming.

[Wayne_Kozun]

This isn't true of all links course but with courses that go out and back you don't need returning nines as you have a returning loop after pretty much every hole so you have returning 2s, 4s, 6s, 8s, etc.  But that only works if the course isn't too busy.

When I played at North Berwick several years ago there were some old guys who played about the first four holes and then turned around and player their way back to the clubhouse.

[K Rafkin]

One thing I really enjoyed about my recent trip to Ireland was the opportunity to play courses without returning nines.   While I do like returning nines for a member course, there is something about the journey out and journey back that I like.   I have heard some suggest that a true links course cannot have returning nines.   Is that true?  Discuss.

Most links courses in GB&I are "members courses", all of which seem work fine regardless of returning 9s.


While it most definitely less common for links courses to have returning 9s i don't believe that the concept is "inconsistent with True Links Golf".  Royal County Down and Muirfield both have retuning 9s, and are two of the best links courses that you can play.


A lot of it is an age thing.  Older courses are much more likely to have an out and back routing, while the majority of modern courses were built with returning 9s (although there are plenty of examples to support the opposite on both sides).  I think the simple fact is that most links courses are older, so therefore are more likely to not have returning 9s.  While the reasoning for why most courses are routed the way they are probably varies from course to course, I imagine that the thought of splitting the course up into two different parts just wasn't even a concept when most of these links coursers were laid out.


Does anyone know the oldest course with returning 9s?  I imagine it was probably built after the Old Course was whittled down to 18 holes. 


While I'd a prefer a course to not have retuning 9's I'm not going to hold anything it if it does.  I also think retuning 9s slow down play.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Does anyone know the oldest course with returning 9s?  I imagine it was probably built after the Old Course was whittled down to 18 holes.

How about Musselburgh Old? 

[JWinick]

I totally agree on the slow play issue.   At the South course at Olympia Fields, there is somewhat of an awkward routing on a few holes in order to have returning nines.   The net impact is members will stop at the halfway house before the 8th tee and the 10th tee, which definitely slows down play.     

One thing I really enjoyed about my recent trip to Ireland was the opportunity to play courses without returning nines.   While I do like returning nines for a member course, there is something about the journey out and journey back that I like.   I have heard some suggest that a true links course cannot have returning nines.   Is that true?  Discuss.

Most links courses in GB&I are "members courses", all of which seem work fine regardless of returning 9s.


While it most definitely less common for links courses to have returning 9s i don't believe that the concept is "inconsistent with True Links Golf".  Royal County Down and Muirfield both have retuning 9s, and are two of the best links courses that you can play.


A lot of it is an age thing.  Older courses are much more likely to have an out and back routing, while the majority of modern courses were built with returning 9s (although there are plenty of examples to support the opposite on both sides).  I think the simple fact is that most links courses are older, so therefore are more likely to not have returning 9s.  While the reasoning for why most courses are routed the way they are probably varies from course to course, I imagine that the thought of splitting the course up into two different parts just wasn't even a concept when most of these links coursers were laid out.


Does anyone know the oldest course with returning 9s?  I imagine it was probably built after the Old Course was whittled down to 18 holes. 


While I'd a prefer a course to not have retuning 9's I'm not going to hold anything it if it does.  I also think retuning 9s slow down play.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I would have thought that the reason that many links courses have an out and back configuration is purely a function of the shape of the piece of land available and the location of the clubhouse.


Linksland can be very narrow - less than 100 yards wide - and is often further constrained by a railway line running parallel with the coast. Many links courses are squeezed onto just such a property with the clubhouse at one end where there is access. An out and back routing is therefore inevitable.


More expansive areas of linksland such as Muirfield are the exception rather than the rule.

[David Davis]

For sure out back is a classic routing but it has nothing to do with whether a course is a true links or not.


There are certainly a few factors that play a role, where is the property that you have access to build the course on. In the old days perhaps there were less constraints here so you had places like North Berwick build outback because that was the strip of true links land they had and it was the best land for golf. If in other cases the land beyond the 100-200 meters of dunes land was farmland then there was better use for it than running a golf course through it and of course that would not of been for the better of the golf either. Farmland makes for shiite golf land.

[Niall C]

I don't think you need to have a list of examples to point to show that the answer is no. Simply put, true links golf is largely about what is under foot.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

I would agree with Niall and Duncan in that it depends on the piece of land and in the end it is all about the conditions underfoot. Would NB be any less of a links course if the clubhouse was by the 4th green creating two returning loops? I don't think so.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

I would have thought that the reason that many links courses have an out and back configuration is purely a function of the shape of the piece of land available and the location of the clubhouse.


Linksland can be very narrow - less than 100 yards wide - and is often further constrained by a railway line running parallel with the coast. Many links courses are squeezed onto just such a property with the clubhouse at one end where there is access. An out and back routing is therefore inevitable.


More expansive areas of linksland such as Muirfield are the exception rather than the rule.

Well said Duncan. Spot on.


Atb

[Charles Lund]

Peper and Campbell's True Links takes up the definition of links land in the opening chapter. They cite the British Golf Museum definition

"a stretch of land near the coast...characterized by undulating terrain, often associated with dunes, infertile sandy soil and indigenous grasses as marram, sea lyme, and the fescues and bents which, when properly managed, produce the fine textured tight turf for which links are famed."

They later take up other criteria:

1.  Beside a river estuary.
2.  Partial or occasional sea views.
3.  Few trees.
4.  Numerous bunkers.
5.  Out and back nines.

They present counter-examples of links courses not meeting these criteria to address instances in which generally accepted links courses do not meet selected criteria.They considered close to 400 courses initially and identified 246 that met final criteria.  For those with seeming links like qualities,  they considered terrain, turf, and weather as the basis for excluding some from the list.

Out and back was not part of final criteria as both types of routings were present.

They described some links courses which would be excluded based on strictest criteria.  Photos in the chapter included Rosapenna in County Donegal with two adjacent 18 hole courses on the property, one out and back and one with returning nines.  Many other links courses include routings returning to the clubhouse at the ninth hole.

The chapter makes for an interesting read.

Charles Lund

[JWinick]

Where is the link, Charles?

[Charles Lund]

I own the book.

I got it from Amazon.  Think you would enjoy it, having been to Ireland and partaking of first rate links golf experiences.

I tend to accumulate books.

Charles Lund

[Ronald Montesano]

Scroll to bottom, past advertising


http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=true+links

[JWinick]

I thought that Maidstone was the only or one of the only true links courses in the US, but it is not on their list?   Anyone know why?

[David_Tepper]

A more direct link to True Links:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=17364033687&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dtrue%2520links%26sortby%3D17

New copies for $9.99:

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[Mark Bourgeois]

I thought that Maidstone was the only or one of the only true links courses in the US, but it is not on their list?   Anyone know why?

Other than 8,9, and 14, the character of most of the rest of the course is marshland.

[Peter Pallotta]

If I ever played a links course with returning nines, my head would assure me that it was indeed a links (i.e. with sandy soil and tight turf and indigenous grasses and sea views) but I think my heart would be a bit sad, and my spirit would skink a little in disappointment. Such a course would fulfill the letter of the law, the facts of links golf, but perhaps not the soul of it. Do returning nines make a course "inconsistent with true links golf"?  I defer to the experts and aficionados who have played the links their whole lives, and who say the answer to that is "no".  But it does seems to me, just from reading about it for all these years, that the "description" of links golf is not its "truth".
Peter

[Jim Nugent]

Peper and Campbell's True Links takes up the definition of links land in the opening chapter. They cite the British Golf Museum definition

"a stretch of land near the coast...characterized by undulating terrain, often associated with dunes, infertile sandy soil and indigenous grasses as marram, sea lyme, and the fescues and bents which, when properly managed, produce the fine textured tight turf for which links are famed."

They later take up other criteria:

1.  Beside a river estuary.
2.  Partial or occasional sea views.
3.  Few trees.
4.  Numerous bunkers.
5.  Out and back nines.

They present counter-examples of links courses not meeting these criteria to address instances in which generally accepted links courses do not meet selected criteria.They considered close to 400 courses initially and identified 246 that met final criteria.  For those with seeming links like qualities,  they considered terrain, turf, and weather as the basis for excluding some from the list.

Out and back was not part of final criteria as both types of routings were present.

They described some links courses which would be excluded based on strictest criteria.  Photos in the chapter included Rosapenna in County Donegal with two adjacent 18 hole courses on the property, one out and back and one with returning nines.  Many other links courses include routings returning to the clubhouse at the ninth hole.

The chapter makes for an interesting read.

Charles Lund

Charles, does Portmarnock make the list of true links?  I ask because the 9th returns to the clubhouse. 

[JWinick]

I actually like how Potmarnock's front nine finish still requires a walk to the clubhouse, so you are encouraged to keep going. 

[Charles Lund]

Peper and Campbell include Portmarnock in their book.

The two Barnbougle courses in Australia are included.  Both have returning nine routing.  The two Ballyliffin courses return at nine.

It would be interesting to see a table showing how many of the courses are out and back and how many are returning nine.  The number of returning nine routings is not low. 

Charles Lund

[David_Tepper]

While the current (post-WWII) Royal Dornoch course in a "classic" out-and-back routing, my recollection is the original course there may have had both nines ending at or near the clubhouse. I will have to look at the map of the original course in the clubhouse when I am back there at the end of August.

[Josh Stevens]

I would have thought that the reason that many links courses have an out and back configuration is purely a function of the shape of the piece of land available and the location of the clubhouse.


Linksland can be very narrow - less than 100 yards wide - and is often further constrained by a railway line running parallel with the coast. Many links courses are squeezed onto just such a property with the clubhouse at one end where there is access. An out and back routing is therefore inevitable.


More expansive areas of linksland such as Muirfield are the exception rather than the rule.

Nail on the head.  Casting my mind back to geography 101, it does depend on the sort of links you mean.  Its ok to say its sandy country left behind by retreating sea, but it does depend very much on the nature of the waves as they retreated - do we have a high energy system with lots of long high linear dunes (so its long and narrow piece of land) or the more low energy estuarine system with a complex area of lower lumpy land which can have more depth to it.  Or something in between.

And then of course, its a matter of whether the golfers got to the land before the farmers levelled it out.

Royal St Georges is instructive if you look at Google Earth.  Deal is sort of lumpy like St Andrews,  but ust up the road you have the mega hills of Sandwich, but they are odd.

You have something happening to the waves probably caused by the headland the river mouth to the north.  Its a strange dune system that sort of radiates outward NW from a point in the village of Sandwich Bay, through the golf course and out the other side into Princes to the North and farming land to the NW.  So you have a mixed up complex mess of dunes on the southern end where everything converges, but long and linear out the NW side.

St Andrews of course is also a mess as you have the interaction of the higher energy beach front to the East, with the estuary coming in from the other side.  But it is only returning nines because they chose it that way in order to have a couple of courses all returning to the town.

Must be a PhD in there somewhere