Are Returning Nines Inconsistent with True Links Golf?

[Bill Gayne]

I haven't read through the responses but the two finest links courses I've played, Muirfield and County Down, have returning nines. So my resounding answer is NO.

[Sean_A]

What a bizarre premise.  Why would anyone think the routing of course would determine if it is links or not?  I am very surprised that the authors of the True Links even hinted that an out n' back routing is a key element of links. 


Ciao

[JWinick]

I disagree - there is something about the journey out and back home that is appealing about non-returning nines.

[Willie_Dow]

Two great architects, in my mind, are Jim Fazio Sr and Pete Dye.


Two of my favorite courses are the Moorings (Vero Beach).  Hawks Nest (Faz) and The Moorings Yacht & Country Club (P&A Dye).


Boh have niners ending at the club house.  Both are owned by the Moorings.


Nines are great for super seniors who hate to be left out there after nine.

[Sean_A]

I disagree - there is something about the journey out and back home that is appealing about non-returning nines.

A links has nothing to do with journey the routing offers.  Links is about the land and grasses, not the design. 


Ciao

[Charles Lund]

I can understand why they would have brought it up for discussion.  They characterized out and back routing among other criteria absolute traditionalists would include.

They provided examples of courses excluded by criteria purists would include.  Some of the excluded courses render the definition components unworkable because they exclude well known courses which would be included in any reasonable list of true links courses.

Charles Lund

[Sean_A]

Charles


Because there are so many out n' backers (I am a member of one such links) I too understand why they are discussed, but not in the context of true links.  Guys writing a book on the subject should know better than to attempt linking design concepts to a subject which is strictly about land and grass...two totally different subjects.  They may as well have asked if links can have holes where there isn't the possibility of bouncing a shot onto the green...it makes about as much sense.


Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

Get with the program. We are not here to debate but to accede. So far we've eliminated Rye, HCEG and Royal County Down from the ranks of true links.

Either add to the list or go get your own thread to propogate  your misguided notions.

Helpfully,

[Charles Lund]

I took the time to post how they approached the problem of definition.  The purist definition  was included in an earlier post.  It would exclude Muirfield, Royal Portrush, and Royal Lytham and St. Anne's.

I actually think the discussion was helpful as far as showing their reasoning for not accepting the purist or absolutisic definition.  Without considering the definition and showing a rationale for rejecting it, their own criteria, which are turf, terrain, and weather, would be subject to criticism from a purist point of view.

They discuss other issues in the chapter before moving on to the courses they define as true links.   In reading the chapter, I don't think they seriously entertained out and back routing.  If so, they would have had to exclude four links courses in County Donegal,  aming many other absurd exclusions, like both of the Barnbougle courses in Tasmania.

I hadn't looked at the book for a couple of years.  This thread got me to take a look.  I ordered a second copy to keep up in Seattle, where I stay part of the time.

Charles Lund

[Peter Pallotta]

Marcathon Swift - your satire and irony are duly (or is that dully) noted; but if I dig a little deeper and read between the lines, methinks that in your heart of hearts the fact that Rye returns and that it installed an irrigation system actually does bother you, and gnaws at you in ways you'd rather not admit nor certainly put into words.
Yours
Peter   

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peterifico

Absolutely the installation of irrigation hurts, because meadow grasses are for me the most common dividing line between a links and a not-a-links. It's a functional distinction.

On the other hand, the idea a links without returning nines cannot be a "true" links is inane. I'm with Sean on that one. Linksland is where you find it, relic marine platforms and riverine dumping grounds of sediment. Routings of links reflect realities and constraints of the land and the evolving understanding of how to route, not some studied decision that returning nines should be avoided. 

The idea that a "true" links should be defined as having no returning nines, as if that were a conscious design choice back in the day, made freely from many potential routings available and considered, reminds me of a question park rangers at Ft Sumpter (where the American Civil War began) get more than any other: "Why were so many Civil War battles fought in national parks?"

[Duncan Cheslett]

A links golf course is a course that is laid out upon linksland. End of.


Much linksland is very narrow meaning not only that golf holes can only play parallel with the coastline, but also that there is only room for two holes adjacent to each other playing in opposite directions. The inevitable result is an out and back routing.


Other pieces of linksland are more spacious, allowing for more imaginative routings.


Sean is quite right - the layout of the course is irrelevant in whether or not it is a true links course. All that matters is that it it is laid out upon a particular kind of ground seemingly unique to northern Europe which we call linksland.
 

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - good post, sound reasoning; but I'm not sure that when it comes to definitions you want to hang your hat on what was/was not a "conscious decision" way back when.
Peter

[Sean_A]

I took the time to post how they approached the problem of definition.  The purist definition  was included in an earlier post.  It would exclude Muirfield, Royal Portrush, and Royal Lytham and St. Anne's.

I actually think the discussion was helpful as far as showing their reasoning for not accepting the purist or absolutisic definition.  Without considering the definition and showing a rationale for rejecting it, their own criteria, which are turf, terrain, and weather, would be subject to criticism from a purist point of view.

They discuss other issues in the chapter before moving on to the courses they define as true links.   In reading the chapter, I don't think they seriously entertained out and back routing.  If so, they would have had to exclude four links courses in County Donegal,  aming many other absurd exclusions, like both of the Barnbougle courses in Tasmania.

I hadn't looked at the book for a couple of years.  This thread got me to take a look.  I ordered a second copy to keep up in Seattle, where I stay part of the time.

Charles Lund

Charles...not to be argumentitive, but the idea of a "purist" notion of links being an out n' backer is mad.  Surely, the "purist" idea of a links is the land and grasses. Maybe the authors needed to fill pages 


Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Charles

 They may as well have asked if links can have holes where there isn't the possibility of bouncing a shot onto the green...it makes about as much sense.

Ciao

Right that's Rossapena Sandy Hills off the list, any others?

[Thomas Dai]

Some others with I believe returning 9's -


Royal Birkdale
Trevose
Hillside
Pyle and Kenfig
Princes (3)
Carne (3)
Cashen
Tralee


Atb

[Charles Lund]

"Charles...not to be argumentitive, but the idea of a "purist" notion of links being an out n' backer is mad.  Surely, the "purist" idea of a links is the land and grasses. Maybe the authors needed to fill pages  "

It's clear Peper and Campbell rejected what they characterized as a purist notion which they characterized as absolute traditionalist.  There was a lot of research and scholarship that went into writing the book, as well as editorial scrutiny.

They went on to suggest reasons why many links like courses well known and revered.  The choice of the term purist attempted to connote an extreme position.

Please take the time to get a copy of the book and take a look.  I am sure you will find it interesting and enjoyable.  Their criteria are restrictive but not overly so.

I can't imagine someone writing something that attempts to be thorough and authoritative without going through a process of defining terms.

David Worley's Journey Through the Links starts out with a short chapter dealing with what is a links course.

The definitions and discussion, as well as lists in each book clarify what their ideas are. 

I am trying to explain the thought process that went into preparing these enjoyable and readable books, neither of which came up with an idiosyncratic list.

Charles Lund

[Sean_A]

Charles


I think we are talking past each other.  If one wants to "define" a links it should be done so by describing what a links is.  Why muddle about mixing up concepts of design with land and grasses...even as a sort of schoolboy lesson in what a links isn't? 


I do have the book and wasn't impressed.  Its largely a rehash job of other ideas and books.  But I guess much of the discussion revolves around when one comes to True Links.  This for me is a tail end book after reading tons about the subject.  Perhaps I am the wrong target market.  As an introductory book, sort of like what the World Atlas of Golf was for me, it does the job fairly well. 


In any case, I think it is a definitive and no brainer no that returning nines are inconsistent with true links. 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The area that links the seashore with land usable for agricultural. Sometimes a narrow area, sometimes a wide area and sometimes of a size somewhere in between. And the size, shape and width can alter over time through water and wind etc erosion.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Like Sean, I too thought the True Links book more of a rehash of others with no true original ideas.


It's the history of the land that defines what a links is, nothing else. That from someone who is as purist as they come (possible exception of Melvyn Hunter Morrow acknowledged).


In other words, a links can lose its links-like nature by planting of different grasses, vegetation, addition of water features or whatever you wish to insert. But it doesn't change the fact it is links land first and foremost and that golf played over it is played on the links.


Only with former links land that has been deliberately cultivated in to working arable land can there be any question. And then only because the land no longer "links" the sea with the arable land further inland. It has become arable land itself.

[Thomas Dai]

There is a further aspect to out-n-back that I don't believe has been mentioned......the psychological effect.


The wind keeping the players stock fade/slice or draw/hook shot on the short grass for 9-holes and then zippo, it's blowing the ball towards the gunch on the other-9.


Wind behind on the way out....."better make a my score on the front-9 and then hold on for dear life".


Make the turn and play poorly on the first couple of holes coming home.....potential blow-up time....."It's not my day", "I hate this course" etc etc and the score's written on the card get bigger, that is unless the card is ripped up.


A few examples would include the likes of Deal and Royal Aberdeen.


And then the prevailing weather patterns change, the wind comes from the opposite direction for a day or more likely a few days and whizzo, the times they are a changing.


The effect on the brain. A great aspect of the game of golf. Wonderful.


Atb

[Stephen Northrup]

While the current (post-WWII) Royal Dornoch course in a "classic" out-and-back routing, my recollection is the original course there may have had both nines ending at or near the clubhouse. I will have to look at the map of the original course in the clubhouse when I am back there at the end of August.

David, I have the 1892 map of Royal Dornoch handy (just got back and bought the history while I was there). The original 12th hole of RD returned to the clubhouse then the final six holes played past the clubhouse and back, over what is now the 16th and 17th and part of the Struie.


And I agree with those who say the routing of the course has nothing to do with whether a course is a "true links" or not. It's the land and the design.

[JWinick]

The advantage of returning nines is you are more likely to have different wind directions from hole to hole and you can start groups easier on the 10th tee.   But, there is something cool about the journey out and back home.   Plus, pace of play seems to be better with non-returning nines because there isn't a long stop at either the halfway house or the clubhouse.   


Some believe the subject I posted is true, but then how many true links courses would there be?    As of now there's only a few hundred.  I was shocked to see that Maidstone (which I thought was the only true links course in America) was not on the list. 

[Jeff Johnston]

'Some believe the subject I posted is true'

sorry JWinick, but this just ain't so - or more accurately, to the extent 'some' genuinely do believe this, they do so without any credibility. Folks can argue all day over the merits of out and back / returning nines / other variations, but (to labour the point) the terrain is the determining factor.