One Epic Ireland Trip!

[Charles Lund]

1.  The Confidential Guide ratings were from volume 1 of the new series,  published in 2014.
2.  The Golf Digest ratings involved a shift from earlier rankings, with Ballybunion going from the number one or two spot to number four.  I have not found an accompanying narrative explanation.   Perhaps it telated to the problem necessitating rebuilding of greens. 
3.  2013 Golf Magazine ratings of top 100 courses in the world included the following courses and world rankings from the island of Ireland:
   6.  Royal County Down
  15.  Royal Portrush
  17.  Ballybunion
  40.  Lahinch
  54.  Portmarnock
  76.  Waterville
  86.  European Club
4.  I played six of these seven on my first trip to Ireland.  Waterville was my first course among this list, although I had played The Dooks the day before.  Waterville was one of my favorite experiences at the six courses I played.  Ballybunion was my least favorite.   I do not confuse these with actual course ratings.  I have not been trained to rate conditioning, playability,  aesthetics, memorability of holes etc. in a way that my ratings would be like another raters using the same criteria.
5.  It does appear Ballybunion has fallen in the rankings in the past couple of years.
6.  Perhaps you could enlighten us why you think that might have happened.
7.  I have done about 25 overseas golf trips since the end of 2007 and spent over 18 months overseas.   I do solo golf travel.   I have done trips with significant driving but now travel differently.  I hope your approach to travel evolves in a way that works for you.

Charles Lund

[JWinick]

Charles,


I think reputation and what you are supposed to like sometimes drives course rankings more than it should.  People should just rate and rank courses based on what they think and how they enjoyed their round.    You liked Waterville over Ballybunion, but these rankings subtly suggest that you are wrong.    I'm glad I'm not the only one!


Jon

1.  The Confidential Guide ratings were from volume 1 of the new series,  published in 2014.
2.  The Golf Digest ratings involved a shift from earlier rankings, with Ballybunion going from the number one or two spot to number four.  I have not found an accompanying narrative explanation.   Perhaps it telated to the problem necessitating rebuilding of greens. 
3.  2013 Golf Magazine ratings of top 100 courses in the world included the following courses and world rankings from the island of Ireland:
   6.  Royal County Down
  15.  Royal Portrush
  17.  Ballybunion
  40.  Lahinch
  54.  Portmarnock
  76.  Waterville
  86.  European Club
4.  I played six of these seven on my first trip to Ireland.  Waterville was my first course among this list, although I had played The Dooks the day before.  Waterville was one of my favorite experiences at the six courses I played.  Ballybunion was my least favorite.   I do not confuse these with actual course ratings.  I have not been trained to rate conditioning, playability,  aesthetics, memorability of holes etc. in a way that my ratings would be like another raters using the same criteria.
5.  It does appear Ballybunion has fallen in the rankings in the past couple of years.
6.  Perhaps you could enlighten us why you think that might have happened.
7.  I have done about 25 overseas golf trips since the end of 2007 and spent over 18 months overseas.   I do solo golf travel.   I have done trips with significant driving but now travel differently.  I hope your approach to travel evolves in a way that works for you.

Charles Lund

[Charles Lund]

I am neither right nor wrong .

I am not rating a course in the same way course raters do, who make structured ratings, on a hole by hole basis, or however they formally rate courses.

Besides the qualities that might underly course ratings and rankings, I consider other aspects of the experience that relate to my willingness to return and spend money.

So I don't absolutistically defend my preferences or confuse them with formal  course ratings.

Charles Lund

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,


There is nothing else to say.  His opinions were so gratuitous and laughable that one can only question the motivation.   Sorry, I just call it like I see it.

Truth be told you did a hit and run, and probably can not remember enough of the details of the green sites he discussed to comment intelligently, so you resort to ad hominem. Sorry, I just call it like I see it.

[Sean_A]

I am neither right nor wrong .

I am not rating a course in the same way course raters do, who make structured ratings, on a hole by hole basis, or however they formally rate courses.

Besides the qualities that might underly course ratings and rankings, I consider other aspects of the experience that relate to my willingness to return and spend money.

So I don't absolutistically defend my preferences or confuse them with formal  course ratings.

Charles Lund

Charles


I am largely in your camp.  The quality of courses relative to each other is inconsequential compared to what I enjoy and don't enjoy...and that could be for a host reasons not associated purely with quality, but more to do with the experience of the day. 


Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Before anyone else Quotes Ran's review to support their opinion, they might like to email the poor chap suggesting he needs to revise Para. 8.   

Poitin looks so much like water...NO shortage of the former in the west.

[JWinick]

Mark,


Any idea what it cost?   

Has anyone done the driver / van?  It must be a lot more expensive, as you are paying labor, additional insurance, etc.   I'm curious what others have done.

I have posted about Jimmy elsewhere on this site, but on my last trip to Ireland we had a driver/guide by the name of Jimmy O'Leary from JOL Tours. I could not give him a higher recommendation. Not only does he get you great rates on lodging (fractions of the rack rates at some of the best hotels on the island -- from the Slieve Donard to the Portmarnock Links Hotel), but he knows practically everyone who is anyone in the golf industry. During our round at the European Club, we had a delightful chat with Mr. Ruddy, who had stopped by to give Jimmy a hard time.

[Pete Lavallee]

Everyone I've talk to, including everyone on this trip, absolutely loves Waterville....  If you can find someone who doesn't love Waterville, I would love to meet them.    There is nothing unnatural about that golf course.

I do not LOVE Waterville; there I said it. I do like Waterville, but the meadow like nature of the front nine was a turn off. Now I haven't played there since Fazio's changes, did he really alter that much?

I can also assure you that Waterville provides no more protection from the elements than Ballybunion. The wettest I ever gotten on a golf course was on the Mass hole at Waterville; waterproofs and an umbrella were no match for that squall!

[Ed Brzezowski]

Played Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville and Tralee last week. Wondering why you think Ballybunion is so low? I really enjoyed the course in a 40 mph wind.

[Brent Carlson]

Played these same courses minus Waterville on a trip 6 years ago.  They were all awesome.  Weather was 70(F) everyday and sunny.  For my highly biased rankings I have them:


1.   Ballybunion
2.  Royal County Down
3. Portmarnock   
4. Royal Portrush
5. Lahinch

[Simon Holt]

Hi Jon,

If you want to hire a driver you will have some restrictions that he/she has to adhere too in terms of hours behind the wheel.  This includes a 10 hour break between switching off the for night and switching on again the next morning, no matter how short the journey.

To avoid any unexpected fallout on the ground you need to run everything past them in advance.  There is zero wiggle room since its all recorded on tachographs.

Mark,


Any idea what it cost?   

Has anyone done the driver / van?  It must be a lot more expensive, as you are paying labor, additional insurance, etc.   I'm curious what others have done.

I have posted about Jimmy elsewhere on this site, but on my last trip to Ireland we had a driver/guide by the name of Jimmy O'Leary from JOL Tours. I could not give him a higher recommendation. Not only does he get you great rates on lodging (fractions of the rack rates at some of the best hotels on the island -- from the Slieve Donard to the Portmarnock Links Hotel), but he knows practically everyone who is anyone in the golf industry. During our round at the European Club, we had a delightful chat with Mr. Ruddy, who had stopped by to give Jimmy a hard time.

[JWinick]

Pete,


I respect your opinion, but I think Waterville's setting in an estuary and adjacent to mountains gives it more protection from the elements than Ballybunion.   You can't have it both ways - you can't have the benefit of amazing views with the potential exposure to elements.

Everyone I've talk to, including everyone on this trip, absolutely loves Waterville....  If you can find someone who doesn't love Waterville, I would love to meet them.    There is nothing unnatural about that golf course.

I do not LOVE Waterville; there I said it. I do like Waterville, but the meadow like nature of the front nine was a turn off. Now I haven't played there since Fazio's changes, did he really alter that much?

I can also assure you that Waterville provides no more protection from the elements than Ballybunion. The wettest I ever gotten on a golf course was on the Mass hole at Waterville; waterproofs and an umbrella were no match for that squall!

[Greg Gilson]

Quote from: Greg Gilson on July 10, 2016, 04:38:02 am

"Everyone I've talk to, including everyone on this trip, absolutely loves Waterville....  If you can find someone who doesn't love Waterville, I would love to meet them.    There is nothing unnatural about that golf course."

Just for clarity...the above comments were me quoting extracts from Mr Winick's previous post & do not reflect my opinion.

[Craig Sweet]

Mr Winick and his agenda would have driven me over the top and around the bend. I do not like "pushers"...the "come on lads lets go, lets go, lets go!!!!!" kind of people. The first time he got up at 4am and walked to the course three or four hours before a tee time I'd be getting out the tranquillizer gun and darting him.


This September will mark my third trip to Ireland, and I have found to truly appreciate the golf, the people, the landscape, you have to NOT be in a hurry, and NOT cram everything into a day. How Winick can even remember one course, one singular hole, much less a particuliar green, given his constant go..go..go...is beyond me. 


Next March I'm hoping to spend a month, possibly two, near Lahinch on a small farm...I can almost taste it now!

[JWinick]

Craig,


I think my troops appreciated my leadership!   Do you know how hard it is to get even one foursome to the tee on time after I night of carousing?    I guess it depends on what you signed up for.   We had prepaid rounds - so hard to bail when you have 36 at RCD the next morning (and a 2 hour drive!)


I fully accept the argument that the schedule was aggressive, but it was certainly doable.   It took me a solid 2 days to recover.   Unfortunately, I run a small business and it is really hard for me to get away for more than a week.   The only time that I can really do it is when no one else is working, say July 4 weekend.


What can I say?  I like to stay active and busy.   And, I have a lot of energy.   

Mr Winick and his agenda would have driven me over the top and around the bend. I do not like "pushers"...the "come on lads lets go, lets go, lets go!!!!!" kind of people. The first time he got up at 4am and walked to the course three or four hours before a tee time I'd be getting out the tranquillizer gun and darting him.


This September will mark my third trip to Ireland, and I have found to truly appreciate the golf, the people, the landscape, you have to NOT be in a hurry, and NOT cram everything into a day. How Winick can even remember one course, one singular hole, much less a particuliar green, given his constant go..go..go...is beyond me. 


Next March I'm hoping to spend a month, possibly two, near Lahinch on a small farm...I can almost taste it now!

[JWinick]

Ed,


Unfortunately, ranking always makes it seem that something was ranked low.   But, Ballybunion is in my top-25.   I've played about 40 of the top 100 US and these courses were essentially the only top courses I've played out side of the US.   


My main criticism on Ballybunion was a couple of indifferent holes on the front nine, and the potentially extreme weather conditions its exposed location presents.   It's an excellent golf course.   


On subsequent trips, I may rank it higher.  Who knows?   At least give me credit for being honest about my opinions and attempting to explain why.   


Jon

Played Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville and Tralee last week. Wondering why you think Ballybunion is so low? I really enjoyed the course in a 40 mph wind.

[JWinick]

Give me the cost as opposed to renting a car, if you would.   Thanx, Jon

Hi Jon,

If you want to hire a driver you will have some restrictions that he/she has to adhere too in terms of hours behind the wheel.  This includes a 10 hour break between switching off the for night and switching on again the next morning, no matter how short the journey.

To avoid any unexpected fallout on the ground you need to run everything past them in advance.  There is zero wiggle room since its all recorded on tachographs.

Mark,


Any idea what it cost?   

Has anyone done the driver / van?  It must be a lot more expensive, as you are paying labor, additional insurance, etc.   I'm curious what others have done.

I have posted about Jimmy elsewhere on this site, but on my last trip to Ireland we had a driver/guide by the name of Jimmy O'Leary from JOL Tours. I could not give him a higher recommendation. Not only does he get you great rates on lodging (fractions of the rack rates at some of the best hotels on the island -- from the Slieve Donard to the Portmarnock Links Hotel), but he knows practically everyone who is anyone in the golf industry. During our round at the European Club, we had a delightful chat with Mr. Ruddy, who had stopped by to give Jimmy a hard time.

[Sean_A]

My main criticism on Ballybunion was a couple of indifferent holes on the front nine, and the potentially extreme weather conditions its exposed location presents.   It's an excellent golf course.   

I am still perplexed about the above comment.  Do you mean to say none of the other courses had a few indifferent holes?  I spose none of it matters much...your opinion is yours.  I can't get my head around it, but there ya go.


Ciao

[Mark Smolens]

Mark,


Any idea what it cost?   

Jon, it was a few years ago. This was a "high end" trip. The organizer is a buddy with a lot of $$. All I know is that using Jimmy and his ability to get us rates at the high end facilities cut the cost in a huge way. They had individual rooms (no worry about snorers or guys who wanted to stay in the bar later than a roommate). Having done the driving trip, with 16 rounds in Scotland and Ireland in 9 days, the older I get the more likely I am to go back and use Mr. O'Leary to drive me around -- If only for the sessions where he plays the guitar and sings folk songs. There's something to be said for getting off a transatlantic flight at the Dublin airport, piling onto a big Mercedes bus, stopping at the first liquor store and getting a bottle of Jameson and 7 cups to be consumed on the trip to the Portmarnock Links Hotel -- for a quick nine before we drove out to the Island for a spectacular round (followed by dinner of salmon or steak after Jimmy convinced the chef to stay and cook for us!). You don't get any of that if you're doing it yourself.

I guess I need a couple more people to get shot by the police so I can afford to go back the expensive way...

Has anyone done the driver / van?  It must be a lot more expensive, as you are paying labor, additional insurance, etc.   I'm curious what others have done.

I have posted about Jimmy elsewhere on this site, but on my last trip to Ireland we had a driver/guide by the name of Jimmy O'Leary from JOL Tours. I could not give him a higher recommendation. Not only does he get you great rates on lodging (fractions of the rack rates at some of the best hotels on the island -- from the Slieve Donard to the Portmarnock Links Hotel), but he knows practically everyone who is anyone in the golf industry. During our round at the European Club, we had a delightful chat with Mr. Ruddy, who had stopped by to give Jimmy a hard time.

[Brad Fleischer]

My main criticism on Ballybunion was a couple of indifferent holes on the front nine, and the potentially extreme weather conditions its exposed location presents.   It's an excellent golf course.   

I am still perplexed about the above comment.  Do you mean to say none of the other courses had a few indifferent holes?  I spose none of it matters much...your opinion is yours.  I can't get my head around it, but there ya go.


Ciao

It's been eight years since I played Bally but it was and is in my top 5 in all of Ireland that I have played. I think what's getting lost here is the fact JW Played BB once and it was his first round getting off the plane in what seems to have been horrible conditions. One year my first round was at County Sligo after driving from Shannon right after getting off the plane and before checking into the Yeats. Weather was horrendous but I played anyway and my first thought after walking off 18 was why did I drive all the way here for this. After finally being able to rest and sleep I played 36 the next day and I said oh that's why I drove all the way here on day one.


Lack of sleep coupled with long drives in a country your not used to driving in plus the flight etc does take its toll realized or not.


I think and I could be wrong that didn't play to well into JW assessment of the course. I have no problem with him not having BB in his top three or if he has it last for that matter. While I don't agree with his opinion most people never agree with mine either. Good for you for getting in what you could get in one never knows what may happen and if you got to fulfill one of your golf goals good on you.


I like Sean would however like it if you expanded upon your thoughts regarding exposed locations and some of the holes you felt were indifferent . I've been to Ireland three times for golf and I learned quick if you don't accept the weather as your friend you could be in for a long trip. One day at lahinch we moved up a set of tees knowing had we not it would have made for a long day. It made the round more fun and also let us play some shots we didn't play the day before.


I hope you make it back one day soon so you can compare them all again .


Brad

[Sean_A]

There are 9 courses I played that I want to get back to


Lahinch
Enniscrone
Co Sligo
Rosapenna OTM
Ballybunion
The Island
Ballybunion Cashen
Valley Links
Strandhill


And a dozen new ones I want to see


Ballycastle
Castlerock Bann 9 & Mussenden
Kirkistown
Co Down Annesley
Arklow
Carne Kilmore
Corballis
Cruit
Dooks
Dunfanaghy
Mulranny


If things go to plan I should see The Island and Corballis next year.


Ciao

[JWinick]

Thank you, Brad for not condemning me for ranking it last.   I admitted the weather was tough.   

My main criticism on Ballybunion was a couple of indifferent holes on the front nine, and the potentially extreme weather conditions its exposed location presents.   It's an excellent golf course.   

I am still perplexed about the above comment.  Do you mean to say none of the other courses had a few indifferent holes?  I spose none of it matters much...your opinion is yours.  I can't get my head around it, but there ya go.


Ciao

It's been eight years since I played Bally but it was and is in my top 5 in all of Ireland that I have played. I think what's getting lost here is the fact JW Played BB once and it was his first round getting off the plane in what seems to have been horrible conditions. One year my first round was at County Sligo after driving from Shannon right after getting off the plane and before checking into the Yeats. Weather was horrendous but I played anyway and my first thought after walking off 18 was why did I drive all the way here for this. After finally being able to rest and sleep I played 36 the next day and I said oh that's why I drove all the way here on day one.


Lack of sleep coupled with long drives in a country your not used to driving in plus the flight etc does take its toll realized or not.


I think and I could be wrong that didn't play to well into JW assessment of the course. I have no problem with him not having BB in his top three or if he has it last for that matter. While I don't agree with his opinion most people never agree with mine either. Good for you for getting in what you could get in one never knows what may happen and if you got to fulfill one of your golf goals good on you.


I like Sean would however like it if you expanded upon your thoughts regarding exposed locations and some of the holes you felt were indifferent . I've been to Ireland three times for golf and I learned quick if you don't accept the weather as your friend you could be in for a long trip. One day at lahinch we moved up a set of tees knowing had we not it would have made for a long day. It made the round more fun and also let us play some shots we didn't play the day before.


I hope you make it back one day soon so you can compare them all again .


Brad

[JWinick]

I think the weaker holes at Ballybunion were weaker than the others, although the stronger holes compared favorably.

My main criticism on Ballybunion was a couple of indifferent holes on the front nine, and the potentially extreme weather conditions its exposed location presents.   It's an excellent golf course.   

I am still perplexed about the above comment.  Do you mean to say none of the other courses had a few indifferent holes?  I spose none of it matters much...your opinion is yours.  I can't get my head around it, but there ya go.


Ciao

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ed,


Unfortunately, ranking always makes it seem that something was ranked low.   But, Ballybunion is in my top-25.   I've played about 40 of the top 100 US and these courses were essentially the only top courses I've played out side of the US.   


My main criticism on Ballybunion was a couple of indifferent holes on the front nine, and the potentially extreme weather conditions its exposed location presents.   It's an excellent golf course.   


On subsequent trips, I may rank it higher.  Who knows?   At least give me credit for being honest about my opinions and attempting to explain why.   


Jon

Played Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville and Tralee last week. Wondering why you think Ballybunion is so low? I really enjoyed the course in a 40 mph wind.

Ok that makes sense. We played 16 dead downwind. Driver  6 iron put me almost into the cemetery on one. I agree it's hard to rank courses. Our guys raved about Tralee and I thought Lahinch was the best.  thanks for the input.

ed

[Mark Bourgeois]

JWinick, so post trip what's your world top 25? Bonus points for sharing your thinking eg if you use specific criteria.

Sounds like the trip made an impact.