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JWinick

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Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2016, 02:49:43 AM »

Ha - my instincts were correct - he is just a jealous designer.   It's like listening to Gary Player complain about Chambers Bay after he lost out on the assignment!   

Jon:


I was reading some of Mark Parsinnen's comments regarding the design of Castle Stuart, and the parallel to this thread jumped off the page.

Was the design of Castle Stuart influenced by any other course?

There’s a lot of Portrush out there. I think Portrush has some of the best greens in the world for how gracefully they sit in the landscape. Waterville, for example, is the absolute worst. You look at that and every green is independent of the surrounding terrain. It just sits there like someone built it with complete disregard for anything around it. Portrush is so beautiful. A green there will be like a table, and coming into it will be a hollow that works out, but it might be just a completely independent hollow with shape and interest to it. The green will flow into the hollow and the apron cut will be in the hollow. You can intuit that there’s a hollow there because maybe in the dune that comes down to the green there will be a hollow. It’s a reflection of some greater piece of topography. But it’s a bugger of a little thing because if the pin is over by that hollow, and you get in it, you’re not one-putting. These little kinds of features on the edge of the greens are wonderful things.


Would you agree with the thoughts above on Waterville and Portrush?

Sven

Greg Gilson

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Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2016, 03:15:06 AM »
I'm not saying I DON'T LIKE Waterville. However, I would have it quite low down on my personal  list of favourite Irish courses. This is all subjective, of course, and i'm not going out on too big a limb here, but I enjoy RCD, RP Dunluce, The Island, Ballybunion Old, Lahinch, Portmarnock and maybe even Portstewart Strand, Euro Club & Doonbeg more than Waterville.

That does not make it a bad course...just a pretty girl in a room full of beautiful ones.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2016, 04:22:08 AM »



Greg,


I was speaking to Mark Persinnen's comments, which were so off-base, stupid, and jealous.    I am the furthest thing from a Fazio fan, but I'm not blinded by anti-Fazio bigotry either.   Your opinion is perfectly legitimate.    And, I agree that it is like picking the least attractive Victoria Secret model...


Jon

I'm not saying I DON'T LIKE Waterville. However, I would have it quite low down on my personal  list of favourite Irish courses. This is all subjective, of course, and i'm not going out on too big a limb here, but I enjoy RCD, RP Dunluce, The Island, Ballybunion Old, Lahinch, Portmarnock and maybe even Portstewart Strand, Euro Club & Doonbeg more than Waterville.

That does not make it a bad course...just a pretty girl in a room full of beautiful ones.

Greg Gilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2016, 04:38:02 AM »
Jon, I guess I was reacting to your comments a few posts back (see below) . You have not spent a lot of time in Ireland, nor played many of the other great courses there so the "definitive-ness" of your comments struck me as surprising...and I certainly do not really share the same opinion as you about WV...that's all.

Everyone I've talk to, including everyone on this trip, absolutely loves Waterville....  If you can find someone who doesn't love Waterville, I would love to meet them.    There is nothing unnatural about that golf course.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2016, 04:44:50 AM »
Understood.   I have sampled the highlights of the buffet, but have never claimed to have seen everything.   But, I think my opinion is certainly the most recent one on this board and I am pretty down the middle in how I look at things.   I appreciate all golf courses and don't automatically think a Nicklaus, Fazio, etc. is automatically bad, etc.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2016, 01:16:43 PM »
"I was speaking to Mark Persinnen's comments, which were so off-base, stupid, and jealous."

JWinick -

I am curious. How many courses in GB&I have you seen & played?

Mark Parsinen has created two of the most widely acclaimed courses in GB&I in the past 25 years. While every one is entitled to their own opinion, for you to dismiss his comments as you have is a mistake.

DT

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2016, 06:20:11 PM »
JWinick,


I am not sure that name calling as you have is really the best way to approach saying you disagree with someones opinion. Mark Parsinen (you could at least spell the man's name correctly whilst you insult him) has been involved in the construction of two really good golf courses. Why not put across your reasons for why you feel his criticism is unjustified.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2016, 01:34:01 AM »

   If you can find someone who doesn't love Waterville, I would love to meet them.    There is nothing unnatural about that golf course.   

Jon

And here's me thinking I write with all the subtlety of a brick. Note to self, must be clearer next time.
 
 
PS I have never seen any other work by Fazio.
 
PPS in Jon's defence he was not the first person on this thread to misspell Parsinen. The alternative version is all over the web.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 05:11:57 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2016, 03:16:12 AM »

Jon,


For an architect/designer/financier to take such a gratuitous swipe at one of the most loved courses in Ireland is petty at best, jealous at worst.    It's only natural to dismiss the opinion of someone who competes in the same industry.  Did we take Gary Player's over the top criticisms of Chambers Bay seriously last year, when we learned later he had bid on the project?


I am not discounting his fine work, but I just think his snide comments were so over the top and ridiculous and completely contradictory to the opinion of everyone I've known who played it, as well as Ran's.



JWinick,


I am not sure that name calling as you have is really the best way to approach saying you disagree with someones opinion. Mark Parsinen (you could at least spell the man's name correctly whilst you insult him) has been involved in the construction of two really good golf courses. Why not put across your reasons for why you feel his criticism is unjustified.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2016, 03:20:37 AM »

Tim,


The condition when we played was frankly embarrassing.   Super slow greens for a course that is supposed to be in the top-25 in the world is just not acceptable.    I think it is just too exposed to the wind and the dunes must not be high enough or there is some other factor.   There's nothing stopping the wind from making the course unplayable on windy days.    Ironically, the greens would have been unplayable had they rolled at normal green speeds because of how windy it was.    Nevertheless, I freely admit my opinion may have been clouded by the severe conditions and conditioning.  My understanding is they replaced some or all of the greens recently.


I fully expect my opinion to change in Ballybunion's favor, but I have to give my take on a course the day I played it.   It is a snapshot in time.


Jon


There's a lot of weaker holes on Ballybunion and the other courses had very few, if any.   I freely admit that our opinion may be colored by 40-50 mile per hour winds, rain, and hail!   So, i reserve the right to change my mind.

I'm surprised you ranked Ballybunnion that low!  We had it as one of our higher-ranked courses in Ireland.


Could you describe the weak holes at Ballybunion? 


My comment about rookie mistakes was a laugh at all of us because we were all rookies and all made mistakes. 


Ciao
I think Ballybunion has a marvelous collection of holes. I would also be interested in where you felt the weak holes were.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2016, 05:11:28 AM »
Jon,


I am afraid you still have not put forward one reason why Mark P's opinion is incorrect. I certainly did not see any jealousy reflected in his opinion he clearly did not appreciate the green complexes as much as you did which is probably his loss but certainly does not make him stupid or jealous.


I was quite surprised by your take on Ballybunion. You criticise the green for being too slow but then say that had they have been faster they would have been unplayable in the wind. I would suggest that the greens might have been at that pace due to many of them being newish and to ensure that the course remain playable even in a strong wind which does happen on many days at links courses. So greens set up in an appropriate way for the conditions are unacceptable to you but were they set up in a fashion as to make the course unplayable that would be okay for you. Seems to me you have your priorities all wrong. Did the greens run true when putting on them as this is the only real thing they should be judged on but which you neglect to mention.


As for the site being too exposed, the course is where it is and strong wind is part and parcel of playing links golf. Frankly, if you were not build courses on exposed sites then there would be no links courses. The onus is on the player to adjust his game to cope with the wind.


The dunes were not high enough!!! What do you suggest? The dunes are a natural feature not man made and are actually quite sizable at Ballybunion. I get the impression that you do not entirely get what links golf is all about. You cannot use US golf courses as a benchmark as links golf is so different to it. I am sure were you to play a lot more links golf with people who are well versed in it you would get a much better understanding and appreciation for it.




Jon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2016, 05:28:39 AM »
Ballybunion Old greens -


All the greens were re-laid over the winter. I played the course in late April when they hadn't been open again for long. The length of the sword was deliberately left long and as a consequence they putted very slow, as should be expected following the work, but they putted beautifully smooth and true. They turfs had been knitted together extremely well. Some green surrounds etc had also re-laid.


Here is a thread about it including photographs - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60736.0.html


Atb




JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2016, 06:58:05 AM »



Jon,


It was only because the conditions were so unplayable that the slow greens made sense.   I suppose you really enjoy 40-50 miles hour wind, rain, and hail.   I understood they were only slow because they had changed them.   There is actually nothing contradictory as we played it under very unusual circumstances.   But, I was asked to rank the courses I played and I did so accordingly.   And, then I was asked why I ranked Ballybunion last.   But, last does not mean bad - I would still put Ballybunion in my top-25.


Of all the courses we played, Ballybunion had the most spectacular views, but the consequence was greater exposure to the elements.   How much wind is appropriate?  When do you say - that's just too much?   Certainly, they postpone golf tournaments (including the Open Championship last year) when it is too windy.   And, doesn't the natural setting of the golf course play a role in that?   If you're going to wow a course because of its views, is it not fair to consider whether it is too exposed to the elements?   I simply speculated that maybe the dunes weren't high enough as a possible explanation.  I've also asked other people about this, and they all said that Ballybunion gets more bad weather / extreme wind that any other course in the region.   


Mark's opinion is so off-base that I am scrambling to understand why.   Would you accept the CEO of Coke's opinion on Pepsi and vice-versa as being fair and objective?   He took a gratuitous swipe that was bizarre, baffling, and not accepted by anyone I know.   There is no defense as to whether Waterville's greens are unnatural than to state the contrary.   


And, please spare me your arrogant "you don't know what links golf is all about" comments.   It's just unnecessary.

Jon,


I am afraid you still have not put forward one reason why Mark P's opinion is incorrect. I certainly did not see any jealousy reflected in his opinion he clearly did not appreciate the green complexes as much as you did which is probably his loss but certainly does not make him stupid or jealous.


I was quite surprised by your take on Ballybunion. You criticise the green for being too slow but then say that had they have been faster they would have been unplayable in the wind. I would suggest that the greens might have been at that pace due to many of them being newish and to ensure that the course remain playable even in a strong wind which does happen on many days at links courses. So greens set up in an appropriate way for the conditions are unacceptable to you but were they set up in a fashion as to make the course unplayable that would be okay for you. Seems to me you have your priorities all wrong. Did the greens run true when putting on them as this is the only real thing they should be judged on but which you neglect to mention.


As for the site being too exposed, the course is where it is and strong wind is part and parcel of playing links golf. Frankly, if you were not build courses on exposed sites then there would be no links courses. The onus is on the player to adjust his game to cope with the wind.


The dunes were not high enough!!! What do you suggest? The dunes are a natural feature not man made and are actually quite sizable at Ballybunion. I get the impression that you do not entirely get what links golf is all about. You cannot use US golf courses as a benchmark as links golf is so different to it. I am sure were you to play a lot more links golf with people who are well versed in it you would get a much better understanding and appreciation for it.




Jon

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2016, 07:04:41 AM »

Tom,


Thank you for sharing - I'm sure they will be great when the work is completed.   

Ballybunion Old greens -


All the greens were re-laid over the winter. I played the course in late April when they hadn't been open again for long. The length of the sword was deliberately left long and as a consequence they putted very slow, as should be expected following the work, but they putted beautifully smooth and true. They turfs had been knitted together extremely well. Some green surrounds etc had also re-laid.


Here is a thread about it including photographs - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60736.0.html


Atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2016, 07:14:33 AM »
JW


I don't know what a reasonable expectation is for designing with wind in mind, but I am certain that 40-50 is beyond the pale.  Its not just a matter of width, but also a matter of height.  I know very few links whose design can accomodate that sort of wind. Think of the course with a 20mph, which holes did you think were not up to the mark?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2016, 07:24:02 AM »


And, please spare me your arrogant "you don't know what links golf is all about" comments.   It's just unnecessary.

Jon,


I am afraid you still have not put forward one reason why Mark P's opinion is incorrect. I certainly did not see any jealousy reflected in his opinion he clearly did not appreciate the green complexes as much as you did which is probably his loss but certainly does not make him stupid or jealous.


I was quite surprised by your take on Ballybunion. You criticise the green for being too slow but then say that had they have been faster they would have been unplayable in the wind. I would suggest that the greens might have been at that pace due to many of them being newish and to ensure that the course remain playable even in a strong wind which does happen on many days at links courses. So greens set up in an appropriate way for the conditions are unacceptable to you but were they set up in a fashion as to make the course unplayable that would be okay for you. Seems to me you have your priorities all wrong. Did the greens run true when putting on them as this is the only real thing they should be judged on but which you neglect to mention.


As for the site being too exposed, the course is where it is and strong wind is part and parcel of playing links golf. Frankly, if you were not build courses on exposed sites then there would be no links courses. The onus is on the player to adjust his game to cope with the wind.


The dunes were not high enough!!! What do you suggest? The dunes are a natural feature not man made and are actually quite sizable at Ballybunion. I get the impression that you do not entirely get what links golf is all about. You cannot use US golf courses as a benchmark as links golf is so different to it. I am sure were you to play a lot more links golf with people who are well versed in it you would get a much better understanding and appreciation for it.




Jon


Jon,


I am somewhat surprised by your tone and accusations. I asked very normal and balanced questions about your statements. If you could point out where I accused you of not knowing about links golf. I only suggested that with more playing of them you might gain a greater appreciation of them.


Jon

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2016, 07:39:19 AM »

4,5, and 6 were not great holes, all in the same direction as well as I recall.   Ballybunion seems to have the widest range of opinions of all of the courses we played...  Check out the comments on this link - they range from "overrated" to "best in the world."


http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/golf-course/ballybunion-old?page=1

JW


I don't know what a reasonable expectation is for designing with wind in mind, but I am certain that 40-50 is beyond the pale.  Its not just a matter of width, but also a matter of height.  I know very few links whose design can accomodate that sort of wind. Think of the course with a 20mph, which holes did you think were not up to the mark?


Ciao

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2016, 07:46:08 AM »
Yes, 4 & 5 is an unfortunate pair of 5s.  Not bad holes, but not memorable and certainly not as a pair.  The 6th though is a great hole (one of the best on the course) which belies it unpleasant backdrop. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2016, 07:52:21 AM »

Jon,


I thought your tone was a little dismissive, and pedantic.   If that's not what you intend, than comment retracted.



And, please spare me your arrogant "you don't know what links golf is all about" comments.   It's just unnecessary.

Jon,


I am afraid you still have not put forward one reason why Mark P's opinion is incorrect. I certainly did not see any jealousy reflected in his opinion he clearly did not appreciate the green complexes as much as you did which is probably his loss but certainly does not make him stupid or jealous.


I was quite surprised by your take on Ballybunion. You criticise the green for being too slow but then say that had they have been faster they would have been unplayable in the wind. I would suggest that the greens might have been at that pace due to many of them being newish and to ensure that the course remain playable even in a strong wind which does happen on many days at links courses. So greens set up in an appropriate way for the conditions are unacceptable to you but were they set up in a fashion as to make the course unplayable that would be okay for you. Seems to me you have your priorities all wrong. Did the greens run true when putting on them as this is the only real thing they should be judged on but which you neglect to mention.


As for the site being too exposed, the course is where it is and strong wind is part and parcel of playing links golf. Frankly, if you were not build courses on exposed sites then there would be no links courses. The onus is on the player to adjust his game to cope with the wind.


The dunes were not high enough!!! What do you suggest? The dunes are a natural feature not man made and are actually quite sizable at Ballybunion. I get the impression that you do not entirely get what links golf is all about. You cannot use US golf courses as a benchmark as links golf is so different to it. I am sure were you to play a lot more links golf with people who are well versed in it you would get a much better understanding and appreciation for it.




Jon


Jon,


I am somewhat surprised by your tone and accusations. I asked very normal and balanced questions about your statements. If you could point out where I accused you of not knowing about links golf. I only suggested that with more playing of them you might gain a greater appreciation of them.


Jon

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2016, 07:56:11 AM »
As I stated earlier, Ballybunion is in my top-25.   When the quality of the golf is that good, you can only resort to nit-picking in order to justify why one course is better than the next.    I generally ask "How could the golf course be better?"   Usually that's the way of breaking a tie.    But, it's like saying who is the least attractive in the final round of Miss America - they're all gorgeous!




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2016, 08:21:09 AM »
Yes, 4 & 5 is an unfortunate pair of 5s.  Not bad holes, but not memorable and certainly not as a pair. The 6th though is a great hole (one of the best on the course) which belies it unpleasant backdrop. 
Ciao


Echo this. The 6th is a terrific hole, as is the 9th. Both underrated, probably as they are not as glamorous/photogenic as some of the others holes. Both have particularly evil/wonderful greens and both show that a green doesn't necessarily need bunkers around it. Great setting, wonderful course, although a bit over-manicured and for my taste.


Atb

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2016, 09:06:20 AM »

Jon,


pedantic maybe but only in as much as when you ask a question that is not answered and asking it again. I was only interested in your take on the green complexes and how they fitted in to the surrounds as you clearly disagree with Mark P'stake on them.



Jon,


I thought your tone was a little dismissive, and pedantic.   If that's not what you intend, than comment retracted.



And, please spare me your arrogant "you don't know what links golf is all about" comments.   It's just unnecessary.

Jon,


I am afraid you still have not put forward one reason why Mark P's opinion is incorrect. I certainly did not see any jealousy reflected in his opinion he clearly did not appreciate the green complexes as much as you did which is probably his loss but certainly does not make him stupid or jealous.


I was quite surprised by your take on Ballybunion. You criticise the green for being too slow but then say that had they have been faster they would have been unplayable in the wind. I would suggest that the greens might have been at that pace due to many of them being newish and to ensure that the course remain playable even in a strong wind which does happen on many days at links courses. So greens set up in an appropriate way for the conditions are unacceptable to you but were they set up in a fashion as to make the course unplayable that would be okay for you. Seems to me you have your priorities all wrong. Did the greens run true when putting on them as this is the only real thing they should be judged on but which you neglect to mention.


As for the site being too exposed, the course is where it is and strong wind is part and parcel of playing links golf. Frankly, if you were not build courses on exposed sites then there would be no links courses. The onus is on the player to adjust his game to cope with the wind.


The dunes were not high enough!!! What do you suggest? The dunes are a natural feature not man made and are actually quite sizable at Ballybunion. I get the impression that you do not entirely get what links golf is all about. You cannot use US golf courses as a benchmark as links golf is so different to it. I am sure were you to play a lot more links golf with people who are well versed in it you would get a much better understanding and appreciation for it.




Jon


Jon,


I am somewhat surprised by your tone and accusations. I asked very normal and balanced questions about your statements. If you could point out where I accused you of not knowing about links golf. I only suggested that with more playing of them you might gain a greater appreciation of them.


Jon

Garland Bayley

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Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2016, 12:59:25 PM »
Tony:


My read on Parsinnen's comments on the greens was that he was discussing how they lay on the land.  He seemingly is saying that the greens at RP are very natural in their settings, while those at Waterville look constructed.


For those that have played on both sides of the pond, are there similarities between the greens at Waterville and parkland courses where the land did not necessarily lend itself to natural green sites and much of the challenge and interest had to be created?


Is this simply a matter of the timing of when each course was built?


Sven


Are the greens at Waterville Hackett originals, or modified by Fazio? (I believe it was Fazio they brought in for redo)

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2016, 01:08:38 PM »
"I was speaking to Mark Persinnen's comments, which were so off-base, stupid, and jealous."

JWinick -

I am curious. How many courses in GB&I have you seen & played?

Mark Parsinen has created two of the most widely acclaimed courses in GB&I in the past 25 years. While every one is entitled to their own opinion, for you to dismiss his comments as you have is a mistake.

DT


Ditto! Can't imagine how your hit and run review of Waterville can stand up to someone who has a pretty high standing in architecture, and who works with some of the best.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Epic Ireland Trip!
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2016, 01:20:14 PM »
Gayland,


Just so I am clear - you would take Fazio's opinion of Dye's work and vice-versa as completely unbiased?   I'm not suggesting that the bearer of the opinion is not qualified - just biased.


Jon