[Steve_ Shaffer]

Stonewall consists of two distinct courses, both designed by Tom Doak. The Old course, opened in 1991, rewards an accurate player who can drive straight and read the subtleties in the greens. The North course, which came along in 2001, challenges players to put the ball in the right places on the greens.
For the first time in the history of the U.S. Amateur and U.S. Mid-Amateur, two courses will be utilized for the 36-hole title match.
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/20160630_U_S__Mid-Am_will_test_golfers_with_two_courses.html

Also, this is part of the USGA's 4 events in PA this year:
US Open @ OakmontUS
Women's Am @ Rolling Green
US Women's Mid-Am @ Kahkwa
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/golf/2016/04/08/USGA-will-stage-four-championships-in-Pennsylvania-this-year/stories/201604050164

[Joe Bausch]

In the 36 hole finals match on Thursday, September 15, the North course will be played in the morning, the Old course in the afternoon.  I'm very anxious to see the Mid-Am.

They are also looking for more volunteers.  I'll be there.  Sign-up here:

http://stonewalllinks.com/mid-am/index.html

Photos of the two courses:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StonewallOld/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StonewallNorth/index.html

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played both courses a couple of weeks ago. It was interesting to see how Doak's bunkering style had change. The bunkers on the Old Course looked more conventional in that they didn't have the ragged edges or style of his newer courses. The North course is a little easier to score on and is absolutely fun to play. The Old Course keeps you on your toes all the way around. The front nine is one to Tom's best. I'll be interested to see how they fare.

[Eric LeFante]

Really interesting both courses will be used for the final match considering it's never been done before and there are so many great venues where this could have been done in previous championships (Winged Foot, Baltusrol, Saucon Valley). I wonder what was the deciding factor this year. The members will have to give up the North course in the morning but could have it back in the afternoon.

[Tom_Doak]

I played both courses a couple of weeks ago. It was interesting to see how Doak's bunkering style had change. The bunkers on the Old Course looked more conventional in that they didn't have the ragged edges or style of his newer courses. The North course is a little easier to score on and is absolutely fun to play. The Old Course keeps you on your toes all the way around. The front nine is one to Tom's best. I'll be interested to see how they fare.

Tommy:


The bunkers on the Old Course were built by Gil Hanse, with a bulldozer.  The bunkers on the North Course were built by three or four different associates and interns of mine, with excavators.  So the difference is not so much a matter of style, but of execution.


I was surprised to hear they were going to use both courses for the final match.  That means they must be doing a great job of matching the conditioning, green speed, etc. ... which is not easy for two courses built ten years apart.  Kudos to everyone at Stonewall for pulling that off.


I am going out to speak at the players' dinner before the competition starts, but then I've got to get back home to host a bunch of people at The Loop.


P.S.  The North Course CAN be easier to score on, depending on the hole locations.  But they could make it very difficult if they wanted to.  It is certainly a bit wider and the native rough has never been as nasty there.

[Joe Bausch]

Tom, can you please tell us about the changes to the 17th hole on the Old course?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, can you please tell us about the changes to the 17th hole on the Old course?

Joe:


This will sound bad, but, I have not seen the finished product.  Brian Schneider did the work on the hole after I walked through it with him.


The new tee at 220 yards is a tee that Gil Hanse and I built back in 1992 ... only to have the client tell us that we needed to take it out, because it might be dangerous for players coming off #11 tee.  We argued the point, but eventually it became clear that they just thought the finishing holes were too hard -- after telling us all project to make the course harder -- and wanted us to back off.  So, with all the medium-length par-3 slots already accounted for, we made the 17th green smaller and shortened it to 130 yards at the last minute.


When the USGA came looking as a possible site for the Mid-Am, they asked for a bit more length, and Stonewall volunteered that the 17th had originally been planned much longer ... so they asked us to build the hole as I'd originally conceived it.  I look forward to seeing how it has turned out.  It was going to be a bear the first time around!

[Andy Johnson]

Punched my ticket to the event yesterday, Tom I can't wait to check out another one of your courses. I am a big fan of your work, would love to meet while you are out there.

[Joe Bausch]

Medal play begins tomorrow (Sat) at Stonewall for the U.S. Mid-Amateur at Stonewall Links.

USGA web page:

http://www.usga.org/championships/2016/u-s--mid-amateur-.html

Medal play (36 holes, one round at each course) concludes on Sunday, and match play begins Monday.  The semis and 36 hole final (the first 18 on the North course, then last 18 on the Old course) will have some television coverage:

Wed, Sept 14, Semi-finals, 3-5 PM FS1 (Fox Sports 1)
Thursday, Sept 15, Final, 3-5 PM FS1 (Fox Sports 1)

I've recently updated my photo albums for both courses:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/StonewallOld/index.html

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/StonewallNorth/index.html

The event is free.  Really.  Maybe I'll see you out there!

[Will Lozier]

Why do Joe's pictures make the North so much more interesting than the South - to my eye at least?


I haven't set foot on Stonewalls and am only judging by photos, but the use of angles, the green contours, the bunkering all look better to me on the newer track for whatever reason.


Who can tell me why or set me straight? Which is the better course if there is one?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Punched my ticket to the event yesterday, Tom I can't wait to check out another one of your courses. I am a big fan of your work, would love to meet while you are out there.

Nice going, Andy. Missed seeing you this summer. Hasley was on waiting list and I wonder if he made it. He doubles 18 at Ravinia Green I heard to shoot 72.


I did not try this year due to scheduling conflicts.

[Joe Bausch]

Why do Joe's pictures make the North so much more interesting than the South - to my eye at least?

I haven't set foot on Stonewalls and am only judging by photos, but the use of angles, the green contours, the bunkering all look better to me on the newer track for whatever reason.

Who can tell me why or set me straight? Which is the better course if there is one?

Well, the North photo album pics are all from the same day, just a few months ago.  Maybe I'm better at taking pics now.  Grin.

Just based upon my golfing buds that have played both courses, some favor the Old, some the North.

Both courses are really good.  If the ole 10 round split is implemented, I would personally go 6-4 in favor of the North course.  I find the greens more fun.

[Matt_Cohn]

Players I've talked to are pretty evenly split. My friends and I all seem to prefer the North but almost everyone else I ask seems to like the Old more. They usually say it's more of a shotmaker's course or something to that effect.


What does anyone want to know about the courses or championship? 

[Carl Nichols]

What does anyone want to know about the courses or championship? 

What do you think you have to shoot to make match-play? 

[Matt_Cohn]

What does anyone want to know about the courses or championship? 

What do you think you have to shoot to make match-play?

+3 maybe?

[Joe Bausch]

What does anyone want to know about the courses or championship? 

What do you think you have to shoot to make match-play?

+3 maybe?

I think it will be a couple of strokes higher.  +5 is my guess.

[Matt_Cohn]

What does anyone want to know about the courses or championship? 

What do you think you have to shoot to make match-play?

+3 maybe?

I think it will be a couple of strokes higher.  +5 is my guess.

Depends how they set up the North, mostly. It could be easy or it could be super hard. Old course is more predictable.

[Joe Bausch]

What does anyone want to know about the courses or championship? 

What do you think you have to shoot to make match-play?

+3 maybe?

I think it will be a couple of strokes higher.  +5 is my guess.

Depends how they set up the North, mostly. It could be easy or it could be super hard. Old course is more predictable.

True!  If the pinsetter has a bad night tonight and Saturday, it could be +8!   

[Jon Cavalier]

Tom, can you please tell us about the changes to the 17th hole on the Old course?

Joe:


This will sound bad, but, I have not seen the finished product.  Brian Schneider did the work on the hole after I walked through it with him.


The new tee at 220 yards is a tee that Gil Hanse and I built back in 1992 ... only to have the client tell us that we needed to take it out, because it might be dangerous for players coming off #11 tee.  We argued the point, but eventually it became clear that they just thought the finishing holes were too hard -- after telling us all project to make the course harder -- and wanted us to back off.  So, with all the medium-length par-3 slots already accounted for, we made the 17th green smaller and shortened it to 130 yards at the last minute.


When the USGA came looking as a possible site for the Mid-Am, they asked for a bit more length, and Stonewall volunteered that the 17th had originally been planned much longer ... so they asked us to build the hole as I'd originally conceived it.  I look forward to seeing how it has turned out.  It was going to be a bear the first time around!

Here's the new tee at Stonewall Old's 17th from last weekend, all netted up and ready for tomorrow:


It's a monster from there, but at least now I know what that run-up area to the left of the green is for.

Stonewall is a great venue, and this should be a great event. I'm heading up Sunday morning and look forward to seeing some of you there.

[Tom_Doak]

Here's the new tee at Stonewall Old's 17th from last weekend, all netted up and ready for tomorrow:


It's a monster from there, but at least now I know what that run-up area to the left of the green is for.

They also had the next tee up [which is also an addition] netted up.  My guess is they play it from there [+/- 175 yards] for the qualifying round, and then move it back for the matches, just because of the proximity to the previous green.  I watched five guys play the hole on Thursday, hitting everything from 4-wood to hybrid to 4-iron, all safely to the left of the green side bunker.  Downwind, most shots that carry the right bunker are going just over the back of the green, as there is not a lot of back-to-front tilt.


It's been years since I played the Old course, it was a revelation to see how steep some of those greens were.  We didn't hold ourselves to 3% slopes back then; the client assured me they would keep the greens to a maximum of 10 on the Stimpmeter.  They'll be 11 for the tournament ... they would have aimed a bit higher, but it's been so hot and humid they don't want to take a chance on losing them by trying to get any more speed.  Fine with me!

[Joe Bausch]

The 17th at the Old course played all the way back today.  I think it was 232 yards to the pin!


Tom D:  did the green get expanded when the back tee was built/brought back?

[Tom_Doak]

The 17th at the Old course played all the way back today.  I think it was 232 yards to the pin!


Tom D:  did the green get expanded when the back tee was built/brought back?

And the scoring average for the Old Course today was 77.0.  Pretty high number for a 6800-yard course!  Where is that thread about how all new courses have to be 7000 yards?


Joe:  No, the green was not expanded when the new tee(s) were added.  We had shaped a kick-plate approach for the hole when it was first built, and just left it when the hole was shortened, figuring no one was going to play for that from 130 yards (and a different angle where it helped less).  But since it was still there, it was deemed enough help for the hole, and saved them from having to try to build a small piece of new USGA green tying into the old one, which is very hard to do.  The scoring average for the hole last I looked was exactly 3.500 from the back tee ... 3 birdies, 3 double bogeys, and the rest evenly divided between par and bogey.


First round scoring on the North course [6650 yards] was just over 74.5.  There were 100 more birdies there today than on the Old Course, 35 fewer double bogeys, and fewer "others" too.

[Matt_Cohn]

I posted a sampling of my pictures at https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10102634325128122.1073741840.108419&type=1&l=7bf8a460f9 — they're public.

[Joe Bausch]

I should have picked up a copy of the pin sheet on the Old today.  Very challenging.

Maybe I can remember most of them:

1.  Front left.
2.  All the way back
3.  All the way back
4.  On the small back right tier.
5.  Front left-ish
6.  Front middle
7.  Back-ish
8.  Left middle.
9.  Front left
10.  Back right.
11.  Middle?
12.  Front right.
13.  Middle left.
14.  Front
15.  Right
16.  Middle left.
17.  Middle right.
18.  Middle left.

[Tom_Doak]

I should have picked up a copy of the pin sheet on the Old today.  Very challenging.

4.  On the small back right tier.

I saw that #4 [a 350-yard par-4] had the highest stroke average of any hole on the Old Course, and figured they must have put the pin there.  I was telling Matt Cohn when we walked the course the other day that the year the course opened, the club collected scores as the USGA advises, and #4 was the hole with the greatest differential between good players and bad, so they made it (briefly) the #1 handicap hole.  I suggested changing it, since a stroke doesn't help the bad golfer when he's making X.  But seeing the scores today, maybe that WAS the right decision.  Lots of ways to make double bogey [or other] there.


Hardest hole on the North Course?  The par-3 2nd.  Only one birdie all day, and lots of big numbers.  Let me guess:  back right pin?

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