[Sven Nilsen]

In a random conversation about Cypress Point yesterday, someone who had recently played it made the point that the hole is the way it is because MacKenzie believed the 18th should demand a bit of finesse.


I've never heard that statement, and leaving aside whether or not he was working with Raynor's routing, my initial thought is there were other constraints/demands that resulted in the routing of the 18th.


Did AM somewhere write about finesse on his 18th holes?  Are there other 18th holes of his that support the theory?

[Mike Schott]

The 3 MacKenzie courses I've played are Pasatiempo, U of M and The Meadow Club. The par 3 18 at Pasa is definitely a finesse shot, Proper club selection and a well struck shot are crucial. 18 at U of M, not so much but I'm not sure if the nine's were switched. 18 at Meadow Club is probably a lot more like 18 at CPC. Short par 4 with a well bunkered green. Not much room for error.

[BCrosby]

Tom Doak is probably your best source for anything MacK might have said about his 18th holes. I don't recall reading anything by MacK indicating that his final holes should require "finesse". The 18th at ANGC, for example, was an uphill brute at the time it was built. Still is for most golfers.


As for the 18th at Cypress, there was some talk when it was built about putting the tee back about 50 yards on a rock outcrop. The tee would have required building a bridge to get to it. I seem to recall that the idea was dropped when it became clear that waves and wind made the tee and the bridge unworkable.


Bob

[Tom_Doak]

I do not remember that MacKenzie wrote much of anything about "finishing holes" as a separate species.  If you wanted to posit, based on the finishing hole at Cypress Point and Pasatiempo, that he didn't share the modern preference for a long and difficult par-4 at the end, that's probably a fair assumption, but I think it's safer to say that he just didn't worry as much as some others about what the finishing hole was.  Crystal Downs also finishes on a shortish, dogleg par-4 -- there is a theory that Maxwell actually changed the design of that one -- but, in contrast, both of the 18th holes at Royal Melbourne are difficult par-4's, and the 9th at Augusta is no slouch.


Remember, too, that MacKenzie wrote mostly about design for the enjoyment of golfers, not about golf as a championship test or as a test of character.  His philosophy was certainly different than the founders of Oakmont.

[Jon Wiggett]

Having played a lot of Mackenzie courses I am struggling to think of one that is a real toughie. I suspect that the last at Alwoodley is the most testing but even that is not really hard. Most are very much in the birdie or bogie camp similar to the 18th at TOC.


Jon

[Kalen Braley]

I think the more pertinent question is....

What would he have had to give to give up prior to the 18th hole to do something different?

At both CPC and Pasa....the 7-8 holes leading up to the finishing hole would have been a ton to give up and I'm glad he didn't.

[Pete_Pittock]

Tom Doak is probably your best source for anything MacK might have said about his 18th holes. I don't recall reading anything by MacK indicating that his final holes should require "finesse". The 18th at ANGC, for example, was an uphill brute at the time it was built. Still is for most golfers.


Bob

The old 18th certainly has finesse with that green.

[BCrosby]

The green at the 18th at ANGC is interesting (most greens at ANGC are), but the hole itself is severely uphill off the tee and on the approach. The LZ is pretty wide after you get past the pinch point of trees. Normal golfers won't be able to see the bottom of the pin for their second. Your main goal is to get it up the hill and somewhere on the green.


I'm not sure what a 'finesse' hole is, but the 18th at ANGC doesn't strike me as terribly subtle. The questions it asks are pretty obvious.


Bob

[Will Lozier]

Having played a lot of Mackenzie courses I am struggling to think of one that is a real toughie. I suspect that the last at Alwoodley is the most testing but even that is not really hard. Most are very much in the birdie or bogie camp similar to the 18th at TOC.


Jon

I would argue that Alwoodley's finisher is indeed a very difficult hole - one of the toughest one the course!


Cheers

[Pete Lavallee]

Cavendish certainly has a stout par 4 finisher, from the shoot tee shot to the rollicking fairway, with one big roll just short of thr green negating the run on shot that most mortals will be likely attempting; it requires more brawn than finesse.

[Jon Wiggett]

Having played a lot of Mackenzie courses I am struggling to think of one that is a real toughie. I suspect that the last at Alwoodley is the most testing but even that is not really hard. Most are very much in the birdie or bogie camp similar to the 18th at TOC.


Jon

I would argue that Alwoodley's finisher is indeed a very difficult hole - one of the toughest one the course!


Cheers

Will,


elevated tee shot to a generous fairway followed by a mid-iron is a solid hole and you are correct the 18th is one of the tougher holes on the course but there are very few ball busters. The 4th is the only one where par is a very good score. Alwoodley's difficulty lies in getting the correct placement off the tee leaving an approach into the green which leads to giving yourself a straight forward putt. A poor tee shot leaves a lot of work for par.


Jon

[Matthew Mollica]

I'd urge people to think about match play, which was the predominant form of play back in the day of Alister designing courses. And the form of the game he held of higher importance. There's little likelihood of MacKenzie making the home hole (one which many players might never see in match play) one of the more difficult of the course.


I'd also invite respondents to consider playing the finishing holes of MacKenzie courses with brassies, mid irons and haskells. Or pyratone shafts. These holes seem easy with ProV1 balls, and graphite shafted 440cc titanium driver heads.


MM

[Will Lozier]

Having played a lot of Mackenzie courses I am struggling to think of one that is a real toughie. I suspect that the last at Alwoodley is the most testing but even that is not really hard. Most are very much in the birdie or bogie camp similar to the 18th at TOC.


Jon

I would argue that Alwoodley's finisher is indeed a very difficult hole - one of the toughest one the course!


Cheers

Will,


elevated tee shot to a generous fairway followed by a mid-iron is a solid hole and you are correct the 18th is one of the tougher holes on the course but there are very few ball busters. The 4th is the only one where par is a very good score. Alwoodley's difficulty lies in getting the correct placement off the tee leaving an approach into the green which leads to giving yourself a straight forward putt. A poor tee shot leaves a lot of work for par.


Jon

Jon,


From the tips - 475 yards (yes, from an elevated tee) with a slightly angled 35 yard wide fairway hemmed in by 5 fairway bunkers (10 total on the hole) with OB looming left is, by definition, a very difficult par-4. Also taking into consideration that the predominant wind is hurting...this is a "ball buster"! Yes, the green is relatively tame which makes most 10 ft. par and bogey putts a bit simpler! 


Under the duress of stroke play competition, the second toughest par on the course (after the 4th) makes for IMHO a very tough finish...where a 4 is ABSOLUTELY a VERY GOOD score!


Cheers

[Jeff_Mingay]

As far as the routing, or the tee and green locations are concerned, I don't see a problem with the 18th at Cypress Point. It's a fine hole. I think people confuse a routing issue with all of those beautiful cypress trees that interfere with golf there 

[Will Lozier]

I've said here before that CPC's 18th asks questions of the golfer that have not been asked before in the round. Is it excessively tight...yes. But I like that it is different from the previous 17 holes. I do understand why some do not. I would love to see the proposed tee the rocks or at least a mock-up!

[BCrosby]

I would love to see the proposed tee the rocks or at least a mock-up!

Will - I seem to recall seeing a picture of the nle bridge. I think it came from an old golf magazine and was posted here several years ago. Or is my memory playing tricks?


Bob

[Jon Wiggett]

Having played a lot of Mackenzie courses I am struggling to think of one that is a real toughie. I suspect that the last at Alwoodley is the most testing but even that is not really hard. Most are very much in the birdie or bogie camp similar to the 18th at TOC.


Jon

I would argue that Alwoodley's finisher is indeed a very difficult hole - one of the toughest one the course!


Cheers

Will,


elevated tee shot to a generous fairway followed by a mid-iron is a solid hole and you are correct the 18th is one of the tougher holes on the course but there are very few ball busters. The 4th is the only one where par is a very good score. Alwoodley's difficulty lies in getting the correct placement off the tee leaving an approach into the green which leads to giving yourself a straight forward putt. A poor tee shot leaves a lot of work for par.


Jon

Jon,


From the tips - 475 yards (yes, from an elevated tee) with a slightly angled 35 yard wide fairway hemmed in by 5 fairway bunkers (10 total on the hole) with OB looming left is, by definition, a very difficult par-4. Also taking into consideration that the predominant wind is hurting...this is a "ball buster"! Yes, the green is relatively tame which makes most 10 ft. par and bogey putts a bit simpler! 


Under the duress of stroke play competition, the second toughest par on the course (after the 4th) makes for IMHO a very tough finish...where a 4 is ABSOLUTELY a VERY GOOD score!


Cheers

Will,


475!!! that's a fair bit longer than it used to be. I have played Alwoodley a lot of times and in normal conditions I was hitting a 5 or 6 iron into the last. I suspect they have added a new back tee in the last three years since I last played it as it used to be about 440 from the tips. 35 yards is quite generous for a fairway though much does depend on how much they bring the rough in. Do not forget that 475 is not the distance that Mackenzie had it at and from memory the last played about 410 from the tips when I first played there back in the early 80's. I have never found Alwoodley a ball buster of a course but rather a thinking golfers course. I do hope this has not changed.


Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

Say what you like about Reddish Vale's notorious 18th, but one thing that MacKenzie can't be accused of is blessing it with a requirement for "finesse".


Brute force and ignorance, more like!

 

[Matthew Mollica]

I would love to see the proposed tee the rocks or at least a mock-up!

Will - I seem to recall seeing a picture of the nle bridge. I think it came from an old golf magazine and was posted here several years ago. Or is my memory playing tricks?


Bob

Here's a plan of the bridge Bob - it was never built. The plan image and description are from the Shack book on CPC.

[BCrosby]

Thanks Matthew. That's what I was thinking of. An audacious idea.


Does it make sense to think that the current tee for the 18th at CPC was MacK's second choice?


Bob

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