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Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2016, 09:04:23 PM »
Horses for courses. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2016, 11:17:12 AM »
Chris - this is an interesting lens through which to look at gca. I've not thought of it before, but you're right: both too much stress and too little stress lessens the fun of a round of golf. How the architect finds/creates just the right amount of stress, and the relief that goes with it when the stress-inducing challenge is surmounted or avoided, seems to me now the real key to good design.  When you take away all the bells and whistles (and those are important too), you are left with this -- whether hole by hole and over the round as a whole, the tension-release balance is satisfying, and satisfying to a wide range of golfers. And it occurs to me that this balance is seen/desired in other many endeavours too: e.g. in a jazz/musical solo, it appears in terms of dissonance/surprise and resolution, and in yoga (I'm told) this tightening and letting go is a continual and central process. Good post

Peter

This is Peter Pallotta at his best; allowing folks to understand what they actually posted after Peter dissects the important elements and then re-packages it it terms to confirm the idea. Good post, indeed!

Agree that Peter's was an excellent post!  Golfers seem to want to generally, over time and most days, shoot near their average score, i.e., not too much harder than they are used to, and not too much easier.

My take on those who think some of their courses (which overall, I find quite good, and frankly, I think they are among the better to best architects, technically and artistically) are a bit stressful.

As to Ken Dye, yes, he is a good golfer. His first year in ASGCA, I was assigned to play with him as sort of welcoming greeter.  He shot 69 at TPC Sawgrass, including doubles on the last two holes.  So yes, at least in that time period, his courses were a bit tougher than most, although, not sure its all because of his golf ability.

He trained under Joe Finger, who pinched pennies pretty well.   So, on the courses of Ken's I have seen, he manages to keep infrastructure cost low. Using Painted Dunes in desert El Paso, where I added 9 to their original 18, as an example, they used mostly double row irrigation, whereas I would use 3-4 rows in that climate for sure.  That results in pretty narrow fairways, as 2 row coverage really only gets 45 yards wide wet enough to grow grass.  3-4 rows gets you 60-70 yards, which is more to my taste.

Another of their techniques (which I HAVE adopted) is to design drainage for only really small storms, i.e. 1/4" per hour, whereas engineers would probably use something closer to 2-2.5" an hour minimum.  It makes sense really, at least for golf, but I use 1/2-1" for a bit of safety.

As to golf ability, Ken used to favor multi-tier greens to test approach shots, and used them a lot more than most of us would.  I think he/they have since softened that tendency.  I know there is another thread on multi-tier greens and how bad they are, and I heard some industry criticism in the past about their over use of them, by good and bad players, as well as those who run golf courses. 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2016, 12:14:31 PM »
Chris, I think the whole point of GCA & the game of golf is walking, not some dumbed down American version of the great game that is played in golf carts by lazy azzs on unwalkable routings misdesigned by inept architects that could not find a walkable routing.


And Black Mesa is a schizophrenic cart ball track.
IMNSHO ;)

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2016, 12:16:45 PM »
Chris - this is an interesting lens through which to look at gca. I've not thought of it before, but you're right: both too much stress and too little stress lessens the fun of a round of golf. How the architect finds/creates just the right amount of stress, and the relief that goes with it when the stress-inducing challenge is surmounted or avoided, seems to me now the real key to good design.  When you take away all the bells and whistles (and those are important too), you are left with this -- whether hole by hole and over the round as a whole, the tension-release balance is satisfying, and satisfying to a wide range of golfers. And it occurs to me that this balance is seen/desired in other many endeavours too: e.g. in a jazz/musical solo, it appears in terms of dissonance/surprise and resolution, and in yoga (I'm told) this tightening and letting go is a continual and central process. Good post

Peter


Think this post illustrates the importance of playing from tees suited to how one typically plays. Matching a set of tee boxes based on how far one can fly a tee shot, having par four lengths which permit a range of second shot lengths following good tee shots, and knowing where greens are situated and a bit about options for flying versus running shots into greens can be helpful.  For courses with varying par three lengths,  I try to be on a set of tees that requires a range of clubs.   If I am mostly hitting fairway metals and hybrids, I am either choosing to play in a way I use these clubs more or I am on a set of tees that don't match my abilities.

On the other hand, when traveling and playing a course a time or two only, I tend to be less focused on what my score actually is.  Tha doesn't mean I am not trying to hit good shots.  It means I am trying to see a new course and hit shots in a new playing environment.

In countries using slope ratings, I have a range which will seem to produce a good balance between being challenged and being brutalized.  By using yardage and slope in this way, I can make a realistic choice for tees.

Thanks for the account of satisfaction in terms of a tension release balance.  I think there are a lot of dimensions related to enjoyability that differentiate experiences people have on courses that might be equivalent on other factors.

Charles Lund

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2016, 12:36:31 PM »
...
Think this post illustrates the importance of playing from tees suited to how one typically plays. ...




Or maybe it illustrates that lots of forced carries is not a good idea in GCA.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2016, 01:19:41 PM »
I don't know why #1 gets all the attention in terms of tee shots at Black Mesa.  I thought the tee shots on other holes like 16 and 18 for example were much more demanding. 

I'm a high capper who played to about a 15 when I played there and I thought the course was very playable and terrific fun in general.

I agree with Bill here, the course is a gem!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2016, 01:49:10 PM »
Chris, I think the whole point of GCA & the game of golf is walking, not some dumbed down American version of the great game that is played in golf carts by lazy azzs on unwalkable routings misdesigned by inept architects that could not find a walkable routing.


And Black Mesa is a schizophrenic cart ball track.
IMNSHO ;)

Gayland, I've walked 36 holes in a day at Black Mesa which I consider a US Top 50 course with its brilliant architecture but it's sad to hear that the modest conditioning from back in the day is deteriorating but I hope that won't stop any 1st time visitors to New Mexico from experiencing this exceptional design.


I walked 36 holes in a day too. However, that doesn't keep it from being a cart ball track, as most all walks are detours on the cart path, and green to tee is not well suited to walkers either.
Admittedly there are some fun and interesting holes at Black Mesa, but then there are IMO some clunkers too.




PS,


If Tom Doak had been able to complete a course there, I think most everyone would have forgotten about the Spann course.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 01:51:45 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2016, 01:52:18 PM »
Garland,

I'm genuinely curious which holes you thought were clunkers at BM?  I hope you're not thinking 16, its a tough hole but so far out of the box it was pretty awesome!  I had such a unique recovery shot when I pulled my 2nd shot left, that I didn't even care....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2016, 02:01:18 PM »
It's been a long time, but my clunkers would seem to be 12, 15, 16 as I recall.
16 is simply too severe to be considered a good hole. Anyone can build a hard golf hole, and it seems anyone did here.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2016, 03:11:47 PM »
It's been a long time, but my clunkers would seem to be 12, 15, 16 as I recall.
16 is simply too severe to be considered a good hole. Anyone can build a hard golf hole, and it seems anyone did here.

Garland,

While I agree that those 3 are not "great" holes, I certainly wouldn't label them clunkers...but perhaps this is just a semantics issue.  Clunker to me is poor or mediocre and I just didn't see any of that out there.

These holes were my favs:

#1, yes I know its controversial, but I love quirk
#4, very neat little par 3, visually one of the coolest looking holes on the course.
#7, fantastic short 4
#14, Very very good par 4, probably the best hole on the course.
#16, It was so out of the box it totally worked for me, but I get its not for everyone
#18, Another quirky hole and the approach in is terrific!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2016, 04:49:56 PM »
PS,

If Tom Doak had been able to complete a course there, I think most everyone would have forgotten about the Spann course.


I don't know about that; I am on record as liking Black Mesa a lot, though I agree with you about the 16th hole.  I thought that one was over the top, from the narrow fairway to the silly-steep green.  [Somebody will counter with "Lost Dunes", but the 4th at Lost Dunes is a wide-open short par-5 until you get to its green, which even I have reached in two shots.  That's a lot different than a super-narrow long par-5 where your first putt might be for a 7 or 8.]


That layout we did was very good, but I'm glad we didn't get it half-built and then have to abandon it.


Who is operating the place now, if not the Tribe?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2016, 05:12:01 PM »
I didn't think Paa Ko was too hard. I thought it was too bland. In a macro sense, not at all - plenty of big trees and mountains to look at. In a micro sense (the golf course), I thought the landing areas were too smoothed out, the greens not particularly memorable, etc. I only remember a few holes on the course, couldn't even begin to guess their numbers. 6 sounds maybe right, I remember liking a short par 4 on the front. Beyond that, I remember little.


Maybe it's because I played with Ran, Mike Nuzzo and another gentleman whose name escapes me (Dick Daley's friend who owns a ranch in Nebraska). Maybe the playing partners were so enjoyable that it overwhelmed the golf. It was a great day, but I don't remember much about the course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Chris Pearson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2016, 01:43:10 PM »
Regarding Black Mesa, the course is now owned by a nearby casino. Sadly, the conditioning is not very good.

While the greens receive all the attention and are in excellent shape (and quite soft, I might add), the rest of the course is suffering. The fairways and tees all contained rough patches where no grass was present, and I noticed at least a dozen areas throughout the course that should be designated GUR and receive the associated TLC.

In addition, a sparse irrigation system (some holes had 2 lines and others only 1) combined with nearly zero hand-watering yielded fairways that were best described as "crispy"—I noticed I left footprints as I zig-zagged the whimsical desert routing.

The bunkers were all horrible and in desperate need of attention. The sand was much firmer than the desert waste areas (which play surprisingly soft), and there were grasses and weeds growing in most of the bunkers. Also, the edges of the bunkers obviously have not been a focal point for maintenance in some time (years, I would guess).

Finally, as far as "clunkers" go, I thought Black Mesa featured a wonderful balance of truly striking/daring holes along with more straightforward (but still enjoyable) ones.

The drivable par 4 7th is easily my favorite, and the par 3 15th is the worst hole on the course.

I noticed some criticism above for the par 4 12th, but in my opinion, that hole offered a sensible bit of relief in a stretch of difficult shots. The par 4 10th calls for one of the most daring tee shots, and the 10th green's reverse redan characteristics make for a tough par. The stunning one-shot 11th requires an accurate short iron (beneath the hole) to a gorgeous dell-like green complex surrounded by mesa formations.

The forgiving drive on the 12th (assuming you don't try to bite off too much) and the relatively open uphill approach to a large green make for a welcome "easy par" after a couple of early testers to start the back 9.

After the 12th, the player is faced with an uncomfortable tee shot on the par 5 13th to a roller coaster fairway with large dunes obscuring the view on both the left and right.

To me, the 12th fits perfectly within this succession of shots, and that's why I think it's a great fit for the routing. I also like how you can see the entire challenge of the 12th from the tee—something that isn't true of 10, 11 (severity of the green), or 13.

Number 14 is another exceptional risk/reward par 4 with a grassy dune squarely in the middle of the preferred driving area. The crazy green caps off a run of 5 thrilling holes to start the back 9 at Black Mesa.

I already mentioned that 15 is a poor par 3—the worst hole on the course, in fact—but I believe this is mostly due to the need to move the golfer to the preferred teeing area for the through-the-canyon par 5 16th.

Other posters mentioned the cruel severity of the drive on the 16th, and I have to agree—I pulled my tee shot a little left and ended up on a dune outside the arroyo that snakes its way up the left side of the hole. From there, I made a heroic 5, but I can see where this hole could yield double-digit scores after even the slightest miss off the tee (or on the second shot).

Fact is, the shorter uphill yardage of the 16th baits the golfer into making poor decisions. The proper play is a shorter knock off the tee to the widest part of the fairway, and then a 200-ish yard shot up the right side to avoid the arroyo on the left.

I still think the 16th is probably too penal to be considered a "good" hole, but I am also quite certain that most golfers bite off a lot more than they can chew here.

Finally, the 17th and 18th are wonderful closing holes, with the 18th providing one of the most uncomfortable tee shots of the day followed by a gorgeous view on the approach after a well-executed drive.

Black Mesa is awesome. I hope its conditioning improves in the future, as I've not played a course that deserved TLC more than this one.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paa-Ko Ridge and the Whole Point of GCA
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2016, 09:09:07 PM »
Chris,
Did you take any pics showing the conditioning? I'll head out there sometime later this summer.