[Chris Pearson]

I played all 27 holes at Paa-Ko Ridge this week, and I came away with one distinct thought that I'm sure will resonate here:

Despite pristine conditioning, near-perfect bentgrass greens, and a dramatic routing with an embarrassment of awe-inspiring mountain views, Paa-Ko Ridge was ultimately a disappointment.

Why?

Simply put, it was both more stressful and annoying than fun.

The tight playing corridors are densely lined with 10-15ft tall evergreen shrubs and grassy desert wastelands. Fairways are, by my standards, quite narrow, and the surrounding rough is extremely narrow as well. Basically, if you miss off the tee, you're dead.

The par 3s were monotonous as well—lots of long-range drop shots. The only noteworthy par 3 is the famous 4th with its 100-yard long, 4-tiered green (perhaps a bit gimmicky, but I thought it was great because of the pressure it puts on club selection and a solid strike). No Shorts, no Redans, no...anything. Just long irons or hybrids to greens with a few surrounding bunkers. Whee.

Maybe it's Ken Dye. Maybe it's the onerous costs associated with building—and maintaining—desert routings. Hell, maybe it's just me.

But the bottom line is this: I found Paa-Ko Ridge to be a 4-hour stress test, almost completely devoid of fun and exciting shots.

The only hole (out of 27!) that really tickled my fancy is the short par 4 6th, which features one of the wider playing corridors on the course and a splendid view of the available options off the tee.

Anyway, on to the thesis of this thread: What is the point of GCA if not to court the golfer on a fun and exciting 18-hole drama? What is the point of a course that's going to extract 2+ penalties from all but the most consistent player?

Isn't the opportunity to recover from a poor shot one of the greatest joys of the game? (Oh, and I should add: Avoiding a rattlesnake bite, finding your ball, and declaring it unplayable does not count as a proper recovery.)

From what I've read, Mackenzie would agree—a course that yields as many lost or unplayable balls as Paa-Ko Ridge is substandard. In fact, a course like this actually takes away from the game because it eliminates some of the most exciting and rewarding shots one is likely to have through the course of a round.

Finally, if you love perfect greens, top notch conditioning, incredible views, and greens fees under $100, then go play Paa-Ko Ridge. However, if you want to experience the full thrill of golf, you're better off going somewhere else.

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the best posts I have read in years. What do you know about Ken Dye?

[Chris Pearson]

One of the best posts I have read in years. What do you know about Ken Dye?

Not a damn thing, honestly. But I did notice quite a bit of "Dye-style" gash-and-gouge bunkering that was strategically interesting. I also appreciated the subtle and—dare I say—diabolical green contours that, to my eye at least, seemed like the polar opposite of Jack Nicklaus' 1980s-era monstrous contours (many of which have been subsequently flattened, thankfully).

[John Kavanaugh]

My apologies but I did not know when I posted that Baxter Spann was a graduate of LSU. I must recuse myself from this thread no matter how much I admire your passion, misguided or not. #rallypossum

[Chris Pearson]

Although he has quite a few New Mexico courses to his credit, Baxter Spann has nothing to do with Paa-Ko Ridge or this thread.


In other words, you lost me.

[John Kavanaugh]

My son attends LSU. I am nothing but loyal to those he loves. If I had known Baxter was a graduate I would have never posted on this thread.  Like I said my apologies. I am however impressed by your passion and took great pleasure in reading your opinion.

[Chris Pearson]

Again—Baxter Spann has nothing to do with Paa-Ko Ridge or this thread. Ken Dye is the architect of Paa-Ko Ridge.

[Kalen Braley]

Welcome to the club Chris...

JK has punk'd you so you're in.. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Baxter is a partner in the firm that holds Paa-Ko as its crown jewel. It would be like saying Michael Eisner doesn't like Snow White.

[Matthew Petersen]

One of the best posts I have read in years. What do you know about Ken Dye?

Not a damn thing, honestly. But I did notice quite a bit of "Dye-style" gash-and-gouge bunkering that was strategically interesting. I also appreciated the subtle and—dare I say—diabolical green contours that, to my eye at least, seemed like the polar opposite of Jack Nicklaus' 1980s-era monstrous contours (many of which have been subsequently flattened, thankfully).

For the record, Chris, Ken Dye is of no relation to Pete Dye or any of the other "Dye Designs" crowd.


I've never played Paa-Ko Ridge, but I've played a ton of golf in the desert, including Ken Dye's Pinion Hills in Farmington. I thought that a very nice course but not a great one by any means, and better in terms of value than anything.


Desert golf is just a really tough trick to pull of. The amount of land you can turf is limited and in some places the desert vegetation is really thick (and tends to get thicker around the edges where it's getting inadvertently watered). Even the widest desert golf courses are narrow and really penal if you are off line.

[Chris Pearson]

Re: Ken Dye having no relation to the other Dyes—good to know!

[astavrides]

The tight playing corridors are densely lined with 10-15ft tall evergreen shrubs and grassy desert wastelands. Fairways are, by my standards, quite narrow, and the surrounding rough is extremely narrow as well. Basically, if you miss off the tee, you're dead.


The par 3s were monotonous as well—lots of long-range drop shots. The only noteworthy par 3 is the famous 4th with its 100-yard long, 4-tiered green (perhaps a bit gimmicky, but I thought it was great because of the pressure it puts on club selection and a solid strike). No Shorts, no Redans, no...anything. Just long irons or hybrids to greens with a few surrounding bunkers. Whee.


The only hole (out of 27!) that really tickled my fancy is the short par 4 6th, which features one of the wider playing corridors on the course and a splendid view of the available options off the tee.

I live in ABQ and have played the course 17 times.


#6 gives you options in terms of how far to try to hit your drive, but I don't see any benefit in ever favoring the left side...regardless of where the pin is. I do like the fact that he threw in a short par 4, and I think the green complex (once you get there) is good and challenging.


I never thought about it until you mentioned it, but, yes, all 7 par 3s (over the 27 holes) are downhill, some severely--except for #4 when the pin is in the back. I do like those holes, in general, but too repetitive.


Yes, the corridors are too narrow. The back of the scorecard gives you the option of not playing USGA rules, and instead playing the desert as a lateral, which probably improves the experience somewhat for a lot of people. If you aren't hitting it straight and playing somewhat cautiously, it can be a long day. Often though I find it a fun challenge.

[Charles Lund]

I spent a week in New Mexico in 2011.  I played Black Mesa once, due to poor conditioning, reportedly due to the harsh winter (I was there in May).  

I played Paa-Ko Ridge three times and the University of New Mexico tournament course once.I found the playing experience at Paa-Ko Ridge to be exhilarating,  particularly the elevation changes and playing at this elevation.   I spend a lot of time in the Pacific NW and have played lots of courses with significant elevation changes, trees, and narrow fairways.  I've also played lots of desert courses in Arizona.  I found Paa-Ko Ridge to combine features of mountain and desert style courses quite well.  By the third round I played there, there was less ambiguity for many of the holes which were initially confusing.  I played under conditions of strong winds.  Don't seem to remember losing a lot of balls.

I would play it again without hesitation if I travel again to New Mexico.  I might have posted somewhere that it was in my top 25 all time list, but around #25.  I think it was playing at this altitude and liking the elevation changes that contributed to the memorability of the experience in a positive sense.

Sorry the person starting thus thread had such a negative reaction to the course.The rankings of New Mexico courses from Golf Digest are shown below:

1.  (4) The Club at Las Campanas (Sunset), Santa Fe
2. (1) Paa-Ko Ridge G.C. (1st/2nd) (above), Sandia Park √ ★
3. (5) The Club at Las Campanas (Sunrise), Santa Fe
4. (3) Rainmakers G.C., Alto
5. (2) Black Mesa G.C., Espanola ★
6. (6) Twin Warriors G.C., Bernalillo ★
7. ( Piñon Hills G. Cse., Farmington ★
8. (7) Pueblo de Cochiti G. Cse., Cochiti Lake ★
9. (9) Sierra del Rio G. Cse., Elephant Butte ★
10. (10) Red Hawk G.C., Las Cruces 

★  open to public
check mark - top 100 public courses

Charles Lund

[Chris Pearson]

Charles, you must be a straight hitter. That's the only way you can play Paa-Ko Ridge and not want to kill yourself (assuming you care about your score).

After reviewing that Golf Digest list, I'm sad I didn't have any connections to the Nicklaus courses at Las Campanas. I would have loved to check them out on this trip.

That said, I did get out to Cochiti and Black Mesa, and I thoroughly enjoyed both.

Cochiti was designed by RTJ Jr. in 1981, and at only 6800 yards, it plays pretty short at the high desert altitude. Despite that, I found it to be a very fun course with plenty of challenging shots and interesting decisions off the tee. It also featured the only classic short par 3 I played on this trip (number 7), which was refreshing since pretty much every par 3 on modern New Mexico courses plays to 210 yards or more from the tips.

Despite poor conditioning that some might call a "state of disrepair," Black Mesa might have been my most enjoyable golf experience ever. It features a truly awesome and unique routing that must be experienced to be fully appreciated. If conditioning were at a Paa-Ko Ridge level, Black Mesa would be a top 100 US course, bar none.

[James Brown]

I am not sure I would agree about Paa-Ko being too narrow.  There are a couple of narrow holes, but I would not see that as a big issue overall. 


I think if you want to critique Paa-Ko it might be that the majestic setting gives it more credit than it might be due, but that is a common feature of desert courses. 


Also, the fact that the part threes are all down hill is not a disqualifier.  That would rule out many good courses. 

[Chris Pearson]

Not only are all the par 3s downhill (except the excellent 4th), but they are also monotonously long. Every damn one plays 205+ from the tips. Boring.

[Brad Fleischer]

Chris


Don't want to thread Jack but could you update how bad the conditions where at black Mesa ? I was under the impression it was improving ? It's a shame because it's a great layout and one of my favs

[Kalen Braley]

I've played both Black Mesa and Paa Ko and as a high capper, I would disagree that Paa Ko was narrow.  Yes there were a few intimidating tee shots, but overall, I too thought it was a fun course.

If you want to see narrow courses, come to Utah.....

[Marty Bonnar]

Please tell me I'm not the only GCAer who can't help singing in my head "And now, Billie Joe McAllister's jumped off the Tallahachee Bridge' EVERY TIME I see the words Paa-Ko Ridge...


Sorry, don't hate me cos I'm 'musical'.


F.

[Terry Lavin]

I'd visit New Mexico to sightsee, eat and flee. Golf?  Not a chance.

[Tom_Doak]

Charles, you must be a straight hitter. That's the only way you can play Paa-Ko Ridge and not want to kill yourself (assuming you care about your score).

Chris:


"Wanting to kill yourself" might be a bit harsh toward Paa-Ko Ridge, but in general, I agree with your critique of it more than Charles'.  It might have something to do with me being a wild driver.


When I went to see the course on my only visit, I didn't know anything at all about Ken Dye, other than that he was not part of the family for whom I once worked.  However, after only three holes of Paa-Ko, I remarked to my companion that Ken Dye must be a hell of a player.  When questioned why, I noted that each of the first three tee shots was set up for a tight, three-yard draw.


Sure enough, I have found out, Ken Dye is a 2-handicap and a repeat winner of the ASGCA golf tournament.


As Matthew Petersen has noted, desert golf is a tough trick to pull off, because you have to constantly make transitions back to the desert all around every hole.  If you don't have good topography or a bunch of pretty washes to work around, the holes all start to look the same.  However I believe there is a bit more scope for "design" in New Mexico than in Arizona, because designs are limited more by the economics of water use than by legislation about water use.

[Matt_Cohn]

I can't identify with this description of Paa-Ko at all. I love it.


And from the blue tees the 3's are 166, 254; 243, 173; and 213, 190. So taking into account the elevation, two of the nines have a long 3 and a short 3, while the other nine has two medium 3's.

[Matt MacIver]

Played both PK Ridge and Black Mesa several years ago with my high HC / non GCA enthusiast friend.

We of course we're polar opposites in what we liked - I too think BM is a top 100 layout and he couldn't stand it - his distaste started right at the highly intimating opening tee shot. We played the ~6500 tees and he couldn't clear the mound on the first hole.

His main problem is length - he doesn't hit it far enough to carry hazards, but he doesn't hit it too far offline either so PK Ridge was ideal for him. The views helped and hoping his first ever eagle on a back nine par 4 from ~180 sealed the deal.

I thought the par 5s save one at PK Ridge were three shot slogs with no strategy or options.

[Peter Pallotta]

Chris - this is an interesting lens through which to look at gca. I've not thought of it before, but you're right: both too much stress and too little stress lessens the fun of a round of golf. How the architect finds/creates just the right amount of stress, and the relief that goes with it when the stress-inducing challenge is surmounted or avoided, seems to me now the real key to good design.  When you take away all the bells and whistles (and those are important too), you are left with this -- whether hole by hole and over the round as a whole, the tension-release balance is satisfying, and satisfying to a wide range of golfers. And it occurs to me that this balance is seen/desired in other many endeavours too: e.g. in a jazz/musical solo, it appears in terms of dissonance/surprise and resolution, and in yoga (I'm told) this tightening and letting go is a continual and central process. Good post

Peter   

[Joe Hancock]

Chris - this is an interesting lens through which to look at gca. I've not thought of it before, but you're right: both too much stress and too little stress lessens the fun of a round of golf. How the architect finds/creates just the right amount of stress, and the relief that goes with it when the stress-inducing challenge is surmounted or avoided, seems to me now the real key to good design.  When you take away all the bells and whistles (and those are important too), you are left with this -- whether hole by hole and over the round as a whole, the tension-release balance is satisfying, and satisfying to a wide range of golfers. And it occurs to me that this balance is seen/desired in other many endeavours too: e.g. in a jazz/musical solo, it appears in terms of dissonance/surprise and resolution, and in yoga (I'm told) this tightening and letting go is a continual and central process. Good post

Peter

This is Peter Pallotta at his best; allowing folks to understand what they actually posted after Peter dissects the important elements and then re-packages it it terms to confirm the idea. Good post, indeed!

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