[Tim Gallant]

Are tiered greens (specifically 3-tiered greens) the worst green design plaguing courses today? I don't think I realised how much distain I have for these greens until I went on a trip to Machrihanish.


Approaching the 2nd green on the Old course, I was blown away by the internal contours and how originally fresh it seemed even though the green has seemingly been there for decades. I could have sat there for hours watching approach shots and putts. Then I approached the third green and felt much of the same.


When I compare these greens to those of, for example, Trump Scotland, I start to wonder why people think this is good golf course architecture. Sure I understand the premise of tiered greens: if you miss the proper tier, you are left with a more difficult putt, but not impossible, thus allowing for a two-putt possibility. Are they original? No. Are they fun? No.


Please tell me what I am missing.


Caveat: I am not saying there aren't any great tiered greens - but rather that it is over-used and in no way natural looking or original.

[Sean_A]

Tim

I don't mind tiered greens though I prefer when they are tiered diagonally or some other shape and with a bull nose rather than simply like a tiered tee.  But then, I don't mind unnatural looking architecture if much of the time it is bold and must be reckoned with.  Like anything though...even lovely roly poly greens...stuff can be over-used.  Vive la Variety.

Ciao 

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:


The two greens you mentioned [2nd and 3rd at Machrihanish] are the two best at the club, and two of my favorites anywhere.


The reason you don't see more like them are:


a)  There wouldn't be many hole locations if those greens got over 10 on the Stimpmeter, and
b)  Most architects don't dare build a green which might be unfair at 10 on the Stimpmeter, because we don't control how they're maintained.


I am a conscientious objector in the battle against fast greens, but it sure feels like the weight of the golf world [or at least the golf Establishment] is pushing against me.

[Matthew Petersen]

I've seen tiered greens that work, particularly when the green is on a hillside and the tiers work to sort of soften the hill's slope within some areas of the green. A good example would be the green on #5 at Palmetto in SC. That green is on enough of a hill that you couldn't reasonably have a back to front sloping green without tiers (of course, they could have gone with a green that's not as deep as an alternative).


Anyway, where you see them on most modern designs I agree they feel like a crutch. It's a way to make the greens not look flat but still play flat, which is necessary given green speeds these days.

[Bill Brightly]

Tim,

I'm not sure why you think a two or three tiered green automatically makes the hole look unnatural. CB Macdonald's Short fits pretty well with the surrounds, no?

[David_Elvins]

Tim,

I am with you, none of my favorite courses have tiered greens. 

[Tim Gallant]

Great responses thus far!


Sean, interesting point about boldness compensating for 'unnatural looking'. I thought the greens at Machrihanish Dunes looked bold, but weren't enough to compensate for their unnaturalness in appearance. Is there a course in the UK that you feel where boldness in green contours makes up for their lacking in natural appearance?


Tom, I believe I had read that those were your two favourite greens (either in the confidential guide or an old thread on this site) and agree with you completely - it was love at first sight. I certainly take the point that architects may be hesitant to build certain greens that would become un-pinnable or un-playable at certain green speeds, but it doesn't make me enjoy the design of tiered greens any more


Matthew, I enjoy your example, and actually, the one tiered green that came to my mind in writing this was Augusta's 9th, which is built on a hill, and therefore makes it look a bit more natural. Also, it has the benefit of, as you mention, being built at an angle to the majority of approach shots, which does add some appeal.


Bill, I love the photo! You seem to have foiled my argument a bit That said, it has a more superior contouring than a traditional tiered green in my eyes as it appears (from this photo) that in addition to the left portion of the green being plateaued, to have a nice back-to-front tilt, which softens the tier. I can't tell if there is a further tier to the right portion of the green as well? However, point taken that it does look quite natural!


Further to the Bill's photo, I wonder where the tiered approach was originally developed and if it was a 'template' green in the same way as the horseshoe or redan? Further, upon stronger reflection, there is one-type of tiered greens that I do enjoy - those of Colt. I am specifically thinking of the green at Sunningdale New's 6th, or Swinley Forest's 16th. Both are varied, imaginative and while I believe they are still slightly unnatural in appearance, do fit in with their surroundings well.


Keep the responses coming! What do you think?

[Jon Wiggett]

Tim,


you need to differentiate between looking natural and sitting well in their surroundings. 99% of greens on inland courses it is about how well do they sit. As for the question, there are dozens of examples in the UK of greens with steps that look great.


Jon

[Tim Gallant]

Tim,


you need to differentiate between looking natural and sitting well in their surroundings. 99% of greens on inland courses it is about how well do they sit. As for the question, there are dozens of examples in the UK of greens with steps that look great.


Jon

Thanks Jon,


It was less about sitting well within their surroundings, and more about the greens looking like they were natural, or 'discovered' rather than man-made, even if they were indeed man-made. To Bill's photo and comment, while that particular green fits in well with the natural surroundings, I was commenting specifically on the green itself, which does actually look natural to the naked eye from the tee as well.


On my question to Sean, I appreciate that there are great step greens in the UK, but I was specifically looking for examples of where the tiered approach was so bold and unnatural that it was clearly man-made, but that it still 'worked' because what it lacked in subtlety, it more than made up for in boldness. In my mind, boldness is not a substitute for naturalness.

[Sean_A]

North Berwick's Gate green is a good example of boldness which is at odds with the terrain..and yes, I accept this is an outlier example, but it does illustrate what I mean by bold design which must be dealt with by all golfers.  Mostly, the bold design I refer to is earthworks around greens (or fairways) with the greens themselves being of modest interest.

Huntercombe has a few doozies which stand out as not really of the terrain...the 4th...the 8th. 

GB&I is not a great place to snag examples of this type of green because the courses tend to be old and over time things blend in better.  Even if the shaping is obviously not natural looking it can look great because of the effect of time. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

At Rob Hiseman's Royal course in Bahrain -- the place that was roundly dissed by the European tour players after the Tour went there -- there are a bunch of very, very bold greens. When I saw the place I was pretty astonished -- bearing in mind it was known during the build that the Tour would be there I thought it was one of the bravest pieces of design I'd seen. Anyway, the eighteenth green has a step in it, but it's not straight. Imagine a stage at a stadium rock gig, with a protuberance in the middle that allows the singer to move forward and get closer to the crowd -- that's kinda how it works. I loved it. Ian Poulter didn't.

[Sean_A]

Anyway, the eighteenth green has a step in it, but it's not straight. Imagine a stage at a stadium rock gig, with a protuberance in the middle that allows the singer to move forward and get closer to the crowd -- that's kinda how it works. I loved it. Ian Poulter didn't.

Yes, bull nose...


Ciao

[Niall C]

At Rob Hiseman's Royal course in Bahrain -- the place that was roundly dissed by the European tour players after the Tour went there -- there are a bunch of very, very bold greens. When I saw the place I was pretty astonished -- bearing in mind it was known during the build that the Tour would be there I thought it was one of the bravest pieces of design I'd seen. Anyway, the eighteenth green has a step in it, but it's not straight. Imagine a stage at a stadium rock gig, with a protuberance in the middle that allows the singer to move forward and get closer to the crowd -- that's kinda how it works. I loved it. Ian Poulter didn't.

I wonder, is that the best recommendation you can have, that Ian Poulter didn't like it 


Niall

[Anton]

I disapprove when they appear to be 'pre-fabbed' and dropped into place by a crane.   When they are blended in correctly with the natural surroundings or are used with other green design characteristics (angles, bull nose, knobs, etc.) then tiered sections work well in my opinion.  Variety makes everything better. 

[Kyle Harris]

Double-Plateau
Maiden
Biarritz

Stretching it a bit:
Valley of Sin
#12 at St. Andrews (Old)
#17 at Merion (East)

...and other countless examples where tiers not only "work," but excel.

As with all things, context is the key and in the above examples the best cases are where the architect made the feature seem/look as natural as possible. Max Behr had it right.

[Bill Brightly]

Tim,

The hole I posted is CB Macdonald's Short at National, so yes, it is a template. Raynor and Banks would build many versions but I don't think any of their's sit as well with the land as National's. In fact, some of the tiering is extremely pronounced, such as the horsehoe (or thumbprint) that Banks built at Forsgate:



This is simply not my cup of tea. Both holes "play" as intended: a short iron that requires accurate iron play to the proper section or a three-putt is highly likely. But CBM's Shorts seem much more natural and this template is perhaps the best example of how Raynor and Banks could never quite match what CBM could accomplish.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Adam

To say the course was 'roundly dissed' is somewhat of an exaggeration! No more than a handful of gripes from confused and underperforming tour pro's on Day 1as they got used to a new venue. For every dissenting voice there were an equal number who liked the challenge the greens set (funny how that doesn't get reported). Padraig Harrington praised the complexity, saying they put a strong emphasis on approach play and hence tee shot strategy. Poults had a nightmare few holes (which I witnessed) and vented in his inimitable fashion. He should have acted more responsibly in the company of hosts who were paying him handsomely. He did himself no favours. The tournament was won at -20 by Paul Casey, the highest ranked player in the field, so despite the intricacy of the greens, the best were able to plot their way around quite successfully.

The boldness of the Bahrain greens was a conscious design decision, given it is the only grass course in the country and we wanted to generate putting surfaces with tremendously varied hole locations and challenges, to keep the captive audience of local golfers entertained year upon year. We were also advised that the Paspalum greens would not be as fast as bent grass greens, so we correlated the boldness with the anticipated stimp readings. If we had designed the course to pamper to the fragile ego of a handful of vocal tour pro's for one week, it would have been to the detriment of the variety enjoyed by the core clientele. I wasn't prepared to do that.

Unsurprisingly, the tournament director didn't dare cut the hole on the elevated terrace of the bandstand on 18. Now, that would have been brave!

[Bill Brightly]

From a strategic point of view, I think Tillinghast made the best use of three-tiered greens. At Ridgewood he built a moderate length par 5 (Hole 3 East) which is designed to be approached with a wedge, a fair request.



The green has three distinct tiers or steps, but you MUST approach from the fairway. The "steps" also are angled from left to right, so getting the ball on the prop tier is almost impossible from the rough, especially the right rough. This means that the second shot is critically important; something that is usually NOT the case on average par 5 holes. On this hole, Tilly makes brilliant use of a slight upslope and right-to-left tilt of the land to partially obscure the second shot landing area. You know you need to keep this shot in the fairway and probably need to favor the right side, but you can't quite know where the rough stops and the fairway begins. So the difficulty of the second shot based upon the tiering that exists on the green.


THAT makes the hole. And it sits beautifully with the land:

[Sean_A]

I have no problem with these unnatural tiers.




Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

the eighteenth green has a step in it, but it's not straight. Imagine a stage at a stadium rock gig, with a protuberance in the middle that allows the singer to move forward and get closer to the crowd -- that's kinda how it works.

Kind of like the 14th at Woking?  I bet Ian Poulter's never been there.

[Tim Gallant]

I am giddy reading these responses! Like Tony Montana, I am coming out of my hideout and opening myself to serious gunfire, but I am loving this conversation:


Sean, I love the green at the Gate hole, and truth be told, maybe my terminology needs refreshing, as I wouldn't consider a biarritz a tiered green, nor would I consider a horseshoe green tiered. Yes, there are 'tiers' but I suppose in my mind, I was thinking of a flat area that then slopes up to another flat area and possibly again (alla 3-tiered greens). Your second example you provided was more what I was thinking - two predictably flat areas joined by a rise (or dip). Yes, biarritz greens & horseshoe greens are templates and can have a manufactured look to them, but I suppose I love them more than the tiered approach because I see them less (read never) and the question doesn't seem as obvious.


As Matthew mentioned, I think tiered greens work much better when angled to play, and are set within a natural hill rise, although I still think there are better ways to shape the green to get a more varied and natural looking green complex.


Kyle great examples, and I agree that when they can look more natural, it seems more interesting / unique. You mention the 12th at TOC - I would never have thought of this as a tiered green, but I suppose it does meet the criteria. Does this mean it is more 'natural looking' because I couldn't / didn't necessarily identify it as a tiered green? Is this the point, that if the golfer (me) can identify a tiered green, then it likely doesn't look natural??


Robin, thanks for sharing your thoughts on how grass type influenced your green designs. A question for you / all architects: why don't architects (specifically those who work with the superintendent from the outset) use a grass on greens that won't allow for super fast green speeds, thus negating the issue that Tom is currently battling?


Bill, really appreciate the examples. I don't disagree that the stepped green isn't strategic, but rather that it is boring, and the answer seems too easy. Yes, you need to keep it out of right-rough, but the same could possibly be said if you put a redan-esque green there? One of the best Tilly greens I have played is the 13th at Somerset Hills. I LOVED that green with the mini-swale. I wouldn't necessarily think of that as a tiered green, but if that is the case, then I must revise my OP!


Tom, Woking is high on the list of those to play. I'll be sure to pass an invite to IJP when I pass through. I'm sure he won't turn down a £2 Nassau?

[Keith Phillips]

Interesting topic.  On the four nines at Montclair Golf Club (3 Ross, 1 Banks) at least 20 of the 36 greens have distinct tiers, many of which are quite dramatic.  These courses were all built in the 1920s so are from the 'classic era', and while our greens are very challenging, they are generally considered a lot of 'fun'.  One of the most interesting aspects of tiered greens is the impact on greenside recovery shots, where a lot of creativity is required to have your ball end up on the proper level.

[Jim Hoak]

One feature that is probably underused is a spine in the green running from front to back, rather than across the green from side to side.  You might say that a spine creates tiers alongside each other, rather than on top of each other.  I can think of a few greens like this, but not many.  I like that look.

[David McIntosh]

Tim,

Not sure if you've had a chance to play it yet, but the 5th hole at Longniddry has a distinctly two tiered green and I think it works reasonably well in its surroundings. The green sits diagonally to the tee but as the hole is a dogleg left it isn't visible from the tee (from what I can remember). The hole is just over 300 yards so the approach for most will be played straight down the axis of the green after driving to the lay up area at the base of the hill on which the green sits. Given the gradient of the slope it would have been difficult to have slotted a single tier green into the landscape so the tiers definitely serve the purpose of softening the slope of the hill at the start of the woodland section of the course. It's not my favourite green by any stretch of the imagination but necessary here in order to keep a green in its location playable.

Not so much a spine as Jim describes, but the 4th green at Elie is tiered but into an upper left and lower right half. It's an interesting variation whereby direction, not distance, becomes the main aim when approaching a tiered green. I like this feature and think it works well at Elie.

[Scott Weersing]

What is the difference between a tiered green and one with a low area? For example, the 6th green at Riverfront GC by Tom Doak has a front area that is 7 feet below the rest of the green. They don't put the pin there very often but when they do then the ball feeds to the bottom of the bowl or tier.


I would agree that I do not like the tiered green with a front, middle, and back tier. I think it was a feature from back in the 80s. I remember Virginia CC in Long Beach having tiered greens and then they redid all of them and got rid of the tiers.


Strantz has a tiered green at no. 10 at Royal New Kent but I would say there are not very many good ones.

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