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Bob Brightly

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #150 on: June 20, 2016, 06:54:17 PM »
USGA STATEMENT REGARDING DUSTIN JOHNSON RULING
The USGA wishes to congratulate Dustin Johnson on his victory and thank him, and the other players in the field, for their professionalism and grace throughout the championship. Dustin is a wonderful champion, a talented golfer and a gentleman.
Our team at the USGA has seen and heard a great deal of discussion and debate about the ruling on Dustin's ball moving during the final round of the 2016 U.S. Open Championship at Oakmont Country Club. In addition to the explanations we offered upon the conclusion of the final round, we add these comments.
Upon reflection, we regret the distraction caused by our decision to wait until the end of the round to decide on the ruling. It is normal for rulings based on video evidence to await the end of a round, when the matter can be discussed with the player before the score card is returned. While our focus on getting the ruling correct was appropriate, we created uncertainty about where players stood on the leader board after we informed Dustin on the 12th tee that his actions on the fifth green might lead to a penalty. This created unnecessary ambiguity for Dustin and the other players, as well as spectators on-site, and those watching and listening on television and digital channels.
During any competition, the priority for Rules officials is to make the correct ruling for the protection of the player(s) involved and the entire field. In applying Rule 18-2, which deals with a ball at rest that moves, officials consider all the relevant evidence - including the player's actions, the time between those actions and the movement of the ball, the lie of the ball, and course and weather conditions. If that evidence, considered together, shows that it is more likely than not that the player's actions caused the ball to move, the player incurs a one-stroke penalty. Officials use this "more likely than not" standard because it is not always apparent what caused the ball to move. Such situations require a review of the evidence, with Decision 18-2/0.5 providing guidance on how the evidence should be weighed.
Our officials reviewed the video of Dustin on the fifth green and determined that based on the weight of the evidence, it was more likely than not that Dustin caused his ball to move. Dustin's putter contacted the ground at the side of the ball, and almost immediately after, the ball moved
We accept that not everyone will agree that Dustin caused his ball to move. Issues under Rule 18-2 often require a judgment where there is some uncertainty, and this was one of those instances. We also understand that some people may disagree with Rule 18-2 itself. While we respect the viewpoints of those who disagree, our Committee made a careful and collective judgment in its pursuit of a fair competition played under the Rules of Golf.
In keeping with our commitment to excellence in all aspects of our work on behalf of the game of golf, we pledge to closely examine our procedures in this matter. We will assess our procedures for handling video review, the timing of such, and our communication with players to make sure that when confronted with such a situation again, we will have a better process.
We at the USGA deeply appreciate the support of players, fans, and the entire golf community of our championships and our other work for golf - and we appreciate your feedback as well. We have established an email address (comments@usga.org) and phone mailbox (908-326-1857) to receive comments. We thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
We all share an abiding love of this great game. Let us continue to work together for its good.

Jeff Fortson

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #151 on: June 20, 2016, 07:47:43 PM »
Maybe there is a good argument against my reasoning on this but...


I don't think a change in the Rules would work as suggested above, to implore a player to replace the ball without penalty if it moves on the green regardless of whether or not the player's actions made it move. 


In fact, I think only the opposite would work.  If we are going to not penalize for a ball moving on the green and the player's ball moves, he should play it where it lies.  My reasoning for this is pretty straightforward.  If a ball moves from one spot to another, isn't it obvious that it most likely won't stay there again?  Think of a massive false front or side of green.  Let's say a ball comes to rest miraculously in a spot that almost defies gravity.  Then the ball moves at some point before a stroke is made.  Should the player be allowed to replace it?  Under the suggestions above, the player would. What if the ball is clearly at rest and while the player approaches the green the ball rolls to a new location?  How can you clearly identify a spot reasonably exact to replace it?  Replacing the ball if it moves for any reason can become very arbitrary and fails to protect the field IMO.


Further, I would foresee many instances where a player would be searching for a point no nearer the hole to "place" the ball should he/she not be able to get it to come to rest in it's original location on a green.  Why not just say, if a ball at rest moves on the green and the player has not accidentally touched the ball or made a stroke at the ball, then the ball must be played as it lies in it's new location?  That seems like a much more equitable and logical way to handle the situation to me.




As a disclaimer, I don't like the current rule and I 100% do not believe DJ caused his ball to move.  I don't care if his putter was touching the ground a half second before it moved.  Unless his putter created an aftershock or has magical properties akin to a magnet, he was not at fault.  The ball didn't move until the putter was undeniably airborne.  I cannot think of a scientific reason beyond gravity and a lack of friction due to high green speeds/slope that could have caused the ball to move.  I felt the video evidence was 100% conclusive in support of that.  But the ambiguity and arbitrary nature of the current rule allowed the rules committee to make a bad decision, IMO.
#nowhitebelt

Mark Pavy

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #152 on: June 20, 2016, 07:52:54 PM »
It's pretty funny, the level of detail and bs, that the rules of golf go into for the ball moving how far...one millimetre? Yet, every single golfer on every single green during every single round of golf- Marks the ball and (supposedly) replaces the ball in exactly the same position? ??? Yeah right!!!

Before we even discuss the preferred lie that occurs during this process of some golfers, I would like to question whether it is even humanly possible to replace the ball in exactly the same place by anyone? Within a millimetre every time? no way.

This highlights the real issue- if a golfer can't even place the ball on the green without fear of it rolling- the golf course is not fit for play.

The US Open is "The Putt-Putt Major", well done Mike Davis and the USGA.

Bruce Katona

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #153 on: June 20, 2016, 09:44:07 PM »
Expecting the USGA to simplify and make easier to understand and apply the Rules of Golf is like expecting the Internal Revenue Service to simplify the US Tax Code.........

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #154 on: June 20, 2016, 09:46:56 PM »
Well, this boils down to the player being responsible for his own score.  Game of honor. I totally agree.  If another player won't challenge it, the rules officials should just stay the hell out of it. 

However, the horse has left the barn on  the concept of the player being responsible for his own card. 

The USGA is the overlord now.  They decide how the player swings his clubs (the anchoring rule). And they've taken responsibility for the card away from the player.  And now this.... 

The worst thing in golf is... The USGA!!!

Really hoped this point was discussed further and its ramifications actual and potential fleshed out, but I suppose it's too subtle and not as sharp-edged i.e. easy to use to score points against another poster. (If it is being discussed on one of the kajillion other threads on this topic please point the way.)

I have felt for a while technology is driving a wedge between player accountability and the application of the rules. Players as well as officials at some point become so dependent on video reviews as to defer to those reviews in lieu of taking personal responsibility.

To a degree this has already happened: how frequently do we see a player call a rules official over for consultation at even the hint of a violation.

I feel ultimately this would have a far more corrosive impact on the game than would the DJ decision taken in isolation.

What is the impact of this trend? Should it be reversed or pushed to its conclusion? If the latter does this leave us practically speaking with one set of rules for floggers and a different set for golfers -- or at least different interpretations?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #155 on: June 20, 2016, 09:51:48 PM »
You do have to recognize that while golfers do call penalties on themselves it is interesting that they are part of the decision as to whether there was a rules violation.  In other sports the decisions are made by the referees/umpires without input from the players or teams.  I am not making an excuse for what happened here. Also, in other sports players are trying to see what rules violations they can get away with.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #156 on: June 20, 2016, 09:56:39 PM »
Yes, Jerry, that's another way of phrasing what I'm asking: is golf converging with other sports in the way the rules are treated by players and applied to competitions?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean_A

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #157 on: June 21, 2016, 02:17:22 AM »
Mark


No question technology is coming between the players, referees and rules.  This has been coming for sme time once players happily abdicated their responsibility to make everyday casual rulings and kick on with the game. I should also say that has been happening at the point where the cards are marked and signed. I must say that largely...fans seemed to be for these "advances" in golf, most especially the card marking aspect. 


One thing is for sure, fans are fickle and rules wing nuts will remain adamant that what we now have is as good as we can expect. I for one am in favour of a complete overhaul of the rules away from medal play and simplified by being geared toward stableford, but the wing nuts are in charge despite the fact that hardly any golfers, with or without handicaps, play golf by the rules. The big problem is Americans are basically in charge of the rules and Americans live in a culture where game action is always under review.  The culture has spread to other sports...ever try watching rugby when a try is scored...or not...jeepers what insanity.


This is a good start to a new start.


http://simplegolfrules.com/introduction/


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Tamburrini

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #158 on: June 21, 2016, 02:58:05 AM »
...  But I do think Dustin made the ball move.  If Lowry did, so did DJ.  DJ deserves the penalty.  But the USGA did blow this.


As usual, your logic fails the smell test. Lowry grounded his putter behind the ball. DJ did not.


Grounding the club has nothing to do with the ruling. In fact, the ball moved before he had a chance to ground it. The question is, did him grounding twice on the putting green, or taking the club from practice to address cause the ball to move.


I'm not talking about ruling. I'm talking about physics.


Neither USGA nor anybody is disputing the ball might move because of many other reasons, including gravity and 14.5 stimp greens. Question is can we rule out DJ caused it or not.


Exactly.  DJ could've been completely innocent but there's no way of knowing.


I'm  curious:


You are playing a round of golf.  You go to put the putter behind the ball, and it moves.  There's no wind, you've not touched the ball, and you've no idea why it just moved.


Would you:

  • [size=78%]Add one to your score and move the ball back?  After all, you've no idea what caused it.[/size]
  • [/size][size=78%]Play it as it lies and refuse the penalty.  You didn't touch it.  You don't know why it moved but, it wasn't you.[/size]

Pete Lavallee

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #159 on: June 21, 2016, 08:21:24 AM »
How would they post his score on the scoreboards if he made a 4 with one ball and a 6 with other?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #160 on: June 21, 2016, 08:31:17 AM »
So if your ball moves an eighth of an inch you gonna putt twice and ask questions later. That's stupider than the stupidest.

jeffwarne

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #161 on: June 21, 2016, 08:38:13 AM »
so after all the fanfare about changing the rule on the greens to "no penalty if ball moves if player did not cause it to move"--even after address.
(Brought about by ever increasing balls at rest moving due to stupified greens)


Does anyone think the rule is better now?


at least before you could eliminate potential penalties by never grounding your club.
and if you did ground and thus address, it was pretty simple that you were penalized.
Now there's the 51% rule-wow

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MClutterbuck

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #162 on: June 21, 2016, 08:48:13 AM »
Expecting the USGA to simplify and make easier to understand and apply the Rules of Golf is like expecting the Internal Revenue Service to simplify the US Tax Code.........


There is actually an effort at USGA and R&A to do just that. First complete revamp of the rules in ages.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #163 on: June 21, 2016, 08:56:12 AM »
so after all the fanfare about changing the rule on the greens to "no penalty if ball moves if player did not cause it to move"--even after address.
(Brought about by ever increasing balls at rest moving due to stupified greens)


Does anyone think the rule is better now?


at least before you could eliminate potential penalties by never grounding your club.
and if you did ground and thus address, it was pretty simple that you were penalized.
Now there's the 51% rule-wow


This incident has clearly shown that one problem was addressed but another made worse.


I still believe that the best way to go is for no penalty if player causes ball to move and it is replaced.


If it moves and he believes he did not cause it to move, it can be played as is.


I dont but the argument this opens grounds for dishonesty. There is already no penalty for causing the ball to move in the act of marking the ball. Any dishonest movement of the ball can be done easier with the hand. 


There would still be a penalty for replacing incorrectly.

Mike_Young

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #164 on: June 21, 2016, 09:11:46 AM »
The next time this happens I think the players will have it known amongst themselves that the player in question or the players directly affected will just stop play where they are and refuse to play another shot until they have the correct ruling. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Andrew Buck

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #165 on: June 21, 2016, 09:54:42 AM »
Expecting the USGA to simplify and make easier to understand and apply the Rules of Golf is like expecting the Internal Revenue Service to simplify the US Tax Code.........

Mike Davis was on Fairways of Life this AM, and did indicate that the ball moving on the green is one of the rules looking at being addressed in the joint "simplification" of rules that are being looked at.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #166 on: June 21, 2016, 11:10:36 AM »
Yes, Jerry, that's another way of phrasing what I'm asking: is golf converging with other sports in the way the rules are treated by players and applied to competitions?

You're damn right that's what's going on.  Every since football started with replay, ALL sports are in an arms race to perfect the Imperfectable.   

It's nuts.  Other sports are taking rulings out of refs' hands and golf is taking rulings out of PLAYER'S hands. 

Hell, we're not even allowed to swing our clubs the way we want to anymore.  We are told that "the golf swing" (emphasis on "the" in the singular) does not include anchoring.  As if we all swing the same...

Well, we're not there yet. But what would "there" look like in golf? Could anyone actually see players no longer responsible for protecting the field?

Also, Palmer played a second ball at the 1958 Masters but I'm guessing you weren't watching.

Sean, great observation about checking the card and interesting to me how I think just about everyone would see that as a positive.
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Bruce Katona

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #167 on: June 21, 2016, 01:01:42 PM »
Gentlemen:

I'll believe the simplification of The Rules of Golf to be true when I see them, much like the flat tax proposal US presidential candidates espouse when attempting to be elected.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #168 on: June 21, 2016, 01:47:03 PM »
Gentlemen:

I'll believe the simplification of The Rules of Golf to be true when I see them, much like the flat tax proposal US presidential candidates espouse when attempting to be elected.


I agree at the professional level.


Reality is I HAVE to pay taxes or go to jail. When I walk onto a golf course, I can play any rules I want. This is a good start:


http://www.scottishgolfhistory.org/origin-of-golf-terms/rules-of-golf/
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #169 on: June 21, 2016, 02:26:27 PM »
So, in a qualifier last year, I moved a loose impediment that was about 2-2/5 inches behind my ball in the sandy rough.
My ball was resting on leaves and a small stick, not a great spot.  I was even through 6 holes and in a decent spot.

I moved the stick, and there was nothing that could influence the ball...I thought.
After removing the stick, grabbed my nine iron, and got behind the ball to line up the shot. 
Bloop!, the ball falls off the lie it is on, and moves a good inch or two.
I call my marker, and we honestly have no idea what the rule is.  My instinct was it was a penalty,
so I play two balls, replace the ball and hit the original lie first, and as close as possible play the second ball

We see an official on the next hole, and tell him what happened and he does not know the answer.  At this point, I'm
either even or 3 over.
He calls the head official and I am informed he will get back to me.  I am playing on the assumption it is a penalty at this point.
I par the 8th hole and on number nine the head official approaches me and asks if I'm 100% certain I did nothing to cause the ball to move.  I'm not 100% certain I am writing this right now, so I say I can't be certain due to moving the branch.  He doesn't believe it's a penalty. but is contacting the USGA.  I made a birdie, and am playing as if it IS a penalty.
Interesting, it took three holes  to be told there was no penalty.  New rule I guess.

I hit it on a slope on the 10th hole, and set up to hit a pitch, and my ball rolled right back onto my LW.  THIS one WAS a penalty!  I was on the 101 freeway about 20 minutes later

JC Jones

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #170 on: June 21, 2016, 05:28:34 PM »
You shouldn't need to be 100% certain you didn't cause the ball to move.  You need only be 51% certain you didn't cause the ball to move.  That is the percentage quoted by the USGA.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #171 on: June 21, 2016, 06:07:27 PM »
But they make you prove it by asking "what else could it have been?"

For DJ, the simple answer is, a tiny puff of wind.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #172 on: June 21, 2016, 09:29:28 PM »
But they make you prove it by asking "what else could it have been?"

For DJ, the simple answer is, a tiny puff of wind.

"Very small rocks"
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Peter Pallotta

Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #173 on: June 21, 2016, 09:36:58 PM »
But they make you prove it by asking "what else could it have been?"

For DJ, the simple answer is, a tiny puff of wind.

"Very small rocks"

"The malevolent telekinetic powers of a spurned high school sweetheart. But I guess you wouldn't know about that -- high school sweethearts that is".

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: We are witnessing the stupidest decision I've ever seen in sports
« Reply #174 on: June 21, 2016, 09:44:43 PM »
But they make you prove it by asking "what else could it have been?"

For DJ, the simple answer is, a tiny puff of wind.

"Very small rocks"

"The malevolent telekinetic powers of a spurned high school sweetheart. But I guess you wouldn't know about that -- high school sweethearts that is".

At the 2:10 mark:
http://youtu.be/ftt4f2H3GDs
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