What should I do with 30 acres of land, short 9 hole or 18 hole par 3?

[Marty Bonnar]

How about you go for a bit of mad GCA type fun and do a nine hole homage to great par 3s of the world?
The Eden, an ANGC 12, a Redan, Sawgrass 16.........
Could be a great little marketing ploy.
F.
PS I'm available for design consultancy... : 0)

[Thomas Dai]

Adrian,

Thank you for posting this.

I recall playing an 18-hole par-3 course (plus I think also a 9-hole par-3 course?) just up the road in Ashton Park many decades ago. I think some kind of golf is still played there, not sure how comprehensive a facility though, but if not, well I guess that'll mean less competition for your Portishead venture.

My admittedly hazy recollection of Portishead and of how steep the area above the seashore is. As I imagine the cliental will be mainly novices/beginners/families/youngsters rather than experienced golfers, my concern would be 'full'' shots played by lesser players going kinda sideways off clubfaces and rolling down the steep slope, getting in the way of other players, slowing play up and possibly causing 'friction' etc, hence I'd favour the 9-hole course.

Mostly proper length par-3's plus a couple of shortish par-4's. From when I was a novice/beginneer playing at the likes of Ashton Court with family/other kids etc us youngsters used to find an 18-hole par-3 courses pretty repetitive and after 9-holes, what with our short attention spans, we were bored and wanted to go off and do something else (frustrating for the parents/grandparents who'd taken us there!).

I love the idea of a Himalayas putting course equivalent though - kids, siblings, parents, grandparents etc all playing together and having fun and getting involved in the game. And not a lot of time needed either, which as mentioned above, is pretty key with youngsters. I also used to like 'crazy golf' as we call 'putt-putt' in the UK. A good way to introduce youngsters to the game. Fun, needs only a small area, and all ages can get involved and have fun together.

Would there be space for a driving range of some sort, even if limited distance balls were used?

I guess the kiosk/mini shop will be have chocs and crisps and fizzy drinks and other stuff full of E-numbers for the kids to scoff () and will do rental clubs etc but some cheap old/secondhand golf clubs, lake-balls etc for sale might help to encourage folk to take up the game a bit more seriously and thus come back more times.

Sounds overall like a very interesting project and one I wish you all the best with. I look forward to hearing how your project is developing.

atb

[Joshua Pettit]

Adrian,

I'm not suggesting this, but just for the sake of discussion...if you drew a pentagonal shape around Mackenzie's Augusta approach and putt course it would consume 20 acres, and the turfed area would be less than 14 acres:

http://static.squarespace.com/static/531f2d91e4b06abec237cfc2/t/5328b6b8e4b0b4a63cc1aca9/1395177175908/?format=1500w

[Alex Miller]

I think both ideas sound good, but like others have said whatever yields the best golf is the right choice.

My one piece of input would be that if you do the 18 hole par 3 course, go crazy with it. A few 60-100yd holes, a couple over 200 yds, semi-blind, uphill, etc... It's been mentioned that that many par 3's in a row can get repetitive, so as long as there is an opportunity for creating unique and interesting golf holes, the par 3 course sounds intruiging!

[Garland Bayley]

I just looked in to see if Alex suggested you put up the topo and run an armchair contest.

Alex, you're slipping.

 

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think an 18 hole par 3 course is a lot less cluttered than a short 9 hole course. The point you need to think about is that as soon as you bring a wooden club into the playing you need 70 yard widths, whilst a par 3 only needs half that width, equally when moving soil you dont need to do anything like as much building a short hole whilst building a fairway can mean massive soil shifts. This land elevates 30 metres over a 200 metre width so its 1 in 7 averaged, there are some flats but fairways cut a 12 mm would see balls roll straight across to rough. So there needs to be a lot of cut and fill for longer holes. The land is about 680 yards x 200 so no problem with 4 widths for par 3's but routing longer holes really needs patterns of 120 -240 - 360 yard widths as a minimum for 2, 4 and 6 fairways. A shorter 9 holer would probably need some co-joined or double fairways....okay midweek but perhaps disaster with a full course.
What this needs to be is commercial not a folly. Though it could well be possible to build 18 greens and bearing in mind 5 are in both course the other 4 longer holes could maybe be played without interference of the other greens so it could be a 9 hole midweek and 18 hole par 3 weekends/busy

[Adrian_Stiff]

I just looked in to see if Alex suggested you put up the topo and run an armchair contest.

Alex, you're slipping.

 

I could probably draw a topo (not had it surveyed yet) but Google Earth... Type Portishead and you are right on it.

[David Davis]

Adrian,

You have more experience than anyone on here of how to create a business plan for low- medium budget operations so I guess you might already have your answer.

But on 30 acres of steep land, I’d be more inclined to try and create an all-inclusive, fun, playing area such as a 9 hole par-3 course (with a couple of driver holes), perhaps reversible; with a himalyas putting green, a short game area and a deck with barbeque on the go…

Ally

+1 here. Throw in a driving range with coin operated trackman with simple patio lounge seating for spectators and make a deal with the pub to serve drinks/snacks while people enjoy themselves there, for commission of course and you may have just the pull to make to make it hugely unique and fun stop for the locals.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I presume this is the plot of land:

[Garland Bayley]

I just looked in to see if Alex suggested you put up the topo and run an armchair contest.

Alex, you're slipping.

 

I could probably draw a topo (not had it surveyed yet) but Google Earth... Type Portishead and you are right on it.

If an armchair contest were run here for the site, any thoughts on what you might do with the results?

[Todd Eckenrode]

This is almost exactly the same scenario we had at a short course we did in Southern California.  Terranea, in Rancho Palos Verdes.  See http://www.terranea.com/los-angeles-golf-courses for some more info & imagery (I don't know how to post pics, sorry).

We had a 31 ac. envelope, and fit nicely 9 par-3's and room for putting greens (incl. a putting course) and some chipping greens.  Overall turf was about 15 acres.  Holes vary from about 100 yds to 175 yards from the back tees.

I can't see 18 holes fitting in personally, having done many routings on that envelope, unless the holes got significantly shorter and tighter together...but every site is different and you could certainly push up against the ocean side more than we could. 

Sounds cool!  This was a favorite project of ours.  Very rewarding and thought provoking to design.  Enjoy!

[Joey Chase]

I just got through a second read of "The Architectural Side of Golf".  Towards the end of the book Simpson discusses a reversible course.  It seems to me to be an amazingly interesting concept.  You could have a nine hole course that played completely different depending on the day/conditions.  If it was done in a creative way you could play a green as a par 3 one day and play the same green from a different direction as a par 5.  The options could make for a lot of fun for everyone involved.  It would certainly be a nice change from two flags on the same green and played from the same tee.  With the right property the concept could stir the imagination.

[JWL]

Nine of the most famous Par 3's in the world along with a description plaque explaining why each is so highly revered.    That will interest folks that can't travel to see many of the famous holes in the  world and will create the hook to why they should come play your course.
The steepness and size of the site would indicate that would be the best product to consider.  Combining fun golf with Golf History. 

[Dave McCollum]

Just another opinion of little value without knowing the land.  I learned the game on a nine hole course.  The tees were spaced so that par changed on a couple of holes—5 to 4, 4 to 5—and the other holes played very differently from different tees.  For example, a par 3 of 180 yards the first time around and 230 the second round.  The last time I played there some daft person had set up the course with more conventional sets of multiple tees.  Much less interesting for those playing two loops, I thought, when played from just one set of tees.  So we played again the next day playing it like we did in the old days.  In this case, it was a resort course with plenty of width and no real safety issues.

[Alex Miller]

This is almost exactly the same scenario we had at a short course we did in Southern California.  Terranea, in Rancho Palos Verdes.  See http://www.terranea.com/los-angeles-golf-courses for some more info & imagery (I don't know how to post pics, sorry).

We had a 31 ac. envelope, and fit nicely 9 par-3's and room for putting greens (incl. a putting course) and some chipping greens.  Overall turf was about 15 acres.  Holes vary from about 100 yds to 175 yards from the back tees.

I can't see 18 holes fitting in personally, having done many routings on that envelope, unless the holes got significantly shorter and tighter together...but every site is different and you could certainly push up against the ocean side more than we could.  

Sounds cool!  This was a favorite project of ours.  Very rewarding and thought provoking to design.  Enjoy!

Todd,

I think I speak for many when I say that Terrenea is a treat! The site does sound similar, but do you think it would be possible to fit in more golf holes if there weren't: bordering houses, bordering roads, bordering parking lots, an expectation to share the course with one another. Terenea is definitely a resort course (not trying to give that negative connotations, it's part of a resort), so there is ample separation for the recreational golfer between holes. I think the difference in not only litigation for damages between the UK and US, but also difference in skill level of those expected to play the course could have a huge impact on whether things fit.

I think in the UK there is less phobia of intruding on another's golf hole during the course of play. Likewise, upagainst the beach and presumably not close to as major a road as Palos Verdes Dr., could there be enough room for an 18 hole par 3 course? I could see it.

I just looked in to see if Alex suggested you put up the topo and run an armchair contest.

Alex, you're slipping.

 

I could probably draw a topo (not had it surveyed yet) but Google Earth... Type Portishead and you are right on it.

If an armchair contest were run here for the site, any thoughts on what you might do with the results?

This would be fantastic, but nothing would need to be done with the results. Maybe the prize would be a phone call with Adrian or a free round of golf once the actual course is open. Those armchair designs don't need to translate to real life. Furthermore, the quirk that I'm encouraging would likely not be well-received in an armchair contest, but like I said is probably vital to an 18 hole par 3 design.

Anyway, not opposed to seeing a topo.  

[Grant Saunders]

For long term consideration of keeping running costs down, 9 greens will be far less expensive to maintain then 18 will. Also, depending on construction, 9 will be less expesive to build.

[MClutterbuck]

How about you go for a bit of mad GCA type fun and do a nine hole homage to great par 3s of the world?
The Eden, an ANGC 12, a Redan, Sawgrass 16.........
Could be a great little marketing ploy.
F.
PS I'm available for design consultancy... : 0)

I am familiar with a situation with similar amount of land if not less, where the owner wanted to do just this, 9 holes replicating ANGC 12 & 16, Sawgrass 16 and others. I saw this 30 days into construction and convinced the owner to talk to a real golf course architect. He of course told him that replicating ANGC 12 on a site with no pine trees and no elevation differences like ANGC made no sense.

Instead, he convinced the owner to do 9 huge greens, most of which are playable from at least 4 sets of tees. The course is relatively flat, wide open fairways (practicaly no rough at all or trees). The architect has drawn two sets of 18 hole routings, par 72, approaching 7,000 yards. The course has 40 plus holes.

This course will be played by a handful of owners only, so there is no concern with playing across other fairways. It is also relatively flat, so this concept probably does not apply to the steep site discussed in this thread.

One more data point, 3 of the owners can drive it 350 yards and are extremely talented recreational players, scoring well on some of the toughest courses out there. They asked for a challenging course.

I believe this course will be very interesting to see and play, when it opens in September.

[Todd Eckenrode]

You are right, Alex.  We do have decent spacing at Terranea, and UK is often much closer spaced.  I did mention you could particularly gain space against the ocean side.

That being said, I think 18 par-3's would be very tight, and lack variety you could get with fewer holes.  If it were me, I'd do however many holes felt best (12 or 13, let's say), as done at Bandon.  Though in my opinion, I think fewer would have been better there to get more variety in the play.  I pulled out wedge too many times there off the "tee", and felt a few somewhat longer holes would have been nice.  I did love the course there, however, don't get me wrong!

If space allowed, I'd also build alt. greens and alt. tees on a few holes that could be played differently second time around, rotated daily to ease wear/tear, or just for sake of variety again.

[Thomas Dai]

Nice to see that things have moved ahead positively at Portishead -


https://www.facebook.com/groups/100511797031036/?fref=nf



Well done to all involved and all the best for the future.


More courses like this please - kids, parents, grandparents etc - fun - "grow the game" and all that.





atb

[Matt_Cohn]

Presidio Hills in San Diego, one of the places I learned to play, has 18 par-3's and occupies right around10 acres, and that's counting the little practice area. The longest hole is around 100 yards. If the question is whether you can build 18 holes on 30 acres, well, yeah!


Do you want a par-3 course — like normal par 3's — or do you want a pitch-and-putt?