[Ronald Montesano]

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/buffalo/golf-legend-jack-nicklaus-wants-to-redesign-delaware-park-course-20160619


This caught me by surprise this morning. It is incredibly timely, as we are releasing an interview tomorrow on another way to go about revising and reenvisioning a municipal golf course. Has anyone heard of this type of offer before and does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[Tom_Doak]

$40 million ?


That's my main thought on the matter.

[Steve Lang]

   I liked reading the comments of the Buffalo public.. It seemed the thoughts of folks were get rid of golf, trade up, watch out, and believe it when they see it.. and those guys in the pic needed proper golf attire and many probably couldn't afford playing there with expected greens fees.. and the golf course only needed $4Million..

[Dan Herrmann]

I don't think the city of Buffalo needs to work on their municipal courses.  Delaware Park is by far the worst course I've ever played. 


There are find munis in metro Buffalo - Beaver Island, Sheridan, Brighton, Audubon...   And more publics detailed here http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/top-25-public-courses-in-buffalo-niagara/


If I were Buffalo, I'd try to revitalize the Central Park area (it's where I spent the first 2 years of my life, and it looks like hell today).

[Ronald Montesano]

Jason Way's interview answers arrived the day before this article appeared in the Buffalo News. The symmetry and serendipity of the golf world brought mild astonishment. If you haven't seen that thread, it's here:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63149.0.html


Over the past four years, I've run one day of golf camp at Delaware Park, and I absolutely see its value for golfers beginning the game, for people of all ethnic backgrounds to come together, and for exercise for all. It's a perspective that I would not have gained if I had not traversed every inch of the course, ensuring that little legs keep trucking.


I love Delaware Park as it is, because it has at least four par three holes where you have to hit directly over trees (or under them, or slide the ball sideways around them) to reach the greens. It has driveable par fours and much funk. I think that there is enough property to return a portion of the park to the pre-Scajaquada Expressway beauty, create a 12-hole course of interest, and establish a practice facility for short game practice (no long range needed.)

[Philip Caccamise]

I don't think the city of Buffalo needs to work on their municipal courses.  Delaware Park is by far the worst course I've ever played. 


There are find munis in metro Buffalo - Beaver Island, Sheridan, Brighton, Audubon...   And more publics detailed here http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/top-25-public-courses-in-buffalo-niagara/


If I were Buffalo, I'd try to revitalize the Central Park area (it's where I spent the first 2 years of my life, and it looks like hell today).

I take it you never played the Grover.


Beaver is bad, too, just in a different way... it's mind numbingly boring.


The best muni in Buffalo-Niagara is Whirlpool, and it's not even close. It's a testament to what can be done as a muni, like Bethpage or Torrey.

I want these courses to be great- I grew up on them- but it's never going to happen.

[Wayne_Kozun]

And there is also the nine hole NOTL course that is supposed to be the oldest surviving golf course in North America.  I think it is municipally owned.

[Ronald Montesano]

People from Buffalo that play Delaware aren't traveling (much less, over the bridges) to play Whirlpool and Niagara On The Lake. They play close to home. Delaware needs to exist. In my mind, they could give back the 1st and 18th holes, par threes across the ring road where the joggers and bikers roam. They could put in a modest clubhouse and short game facility by the southwest corner, and rework the remaining holes into a really nice, 12-hole facility that blends 3s, 4s and 5s.

[Philip Caccamise]

People from Buffalo that play Delaware aren't traveling (much less, over the bridges) to play Whirlpool and Niagara On The Lake. They play close to home. Delaware needs to exist. In my mind, they could give back the 1st and 18th holes, par threes across the ring road where the joggers and bikers roam. They could put in a modest clubhouse and short game facility by the southwest corner, and rework the remaining holes into a really nice, 12-hole facility that blends 3s, 4s and 5s.

Agreed.
This message can be repeated for many beaten up urban munis in other locales, thus the reason facilities like Delaware need to exist. If this project were come to fruition I do NOT want to see a Ferry Point like result which basically excludes its core market due to excessive greens fees (and/or a far too challenging Nicklaus design.)

[Ronald Montesano]

About a year and a half ago, a fellow with narcolepsy fell asleep at the wheel, crashed into the park, and killed a 2-year old boy. The Scajaquada Expressway (the 198 that runs through the park, from river to downtown) speed limit was instantly dropped to 30 mph from 55. The folks who live in Parkside have amassed a powerful speaking voice, hoping to reduce speed even more, to the point where it becomes a typical city boulevard. If this happens, they will certainly turn their attention to a bloated, golf course-enhancement project that will cost the city boatfulls of cash or be serving private interests who will want a return on their dollar. That will certainly steal the course from the people whom it most serves, as PC mentioned above.

[George Smiltins]

https://buffalonews.com/2019/04/09/olmsted-parks-conservancy-and-gaughan-establish-working-relationship/


https://buffalonews.com/2019/02/10/olmsteds-genius-was-to-use-nature-in-his-designs/


A few updates on this story which I've been following from afar. The way I'm reading this is that there is a local lawyer (with some sort of personal relationship with Nicklaus) trying to convince the people of Buffalo that Jack Nicklaus out of the kindness of his heart with the paltry sum of $32 million (described as "at cost") is going to save public golf in the area.


As others have said, the area that needs the most attention is Delaware Park where a Winter Park-ing of the land could have a massive impact on the quality of life for golfers living in the city.


The lawyer leading the charge on this obviously seems to have a clouded opinion of Jack's design philosophies and the costs needed to make simple, enduring improvements to municipal golf courses.


I'm hopeful that the Buffalo Parks will do their due diligence on this one, but ya never know.

[Ronald Montesano]

Here is the connection: https://buffalonews.com/2018/01/16/vincent-m-gaughan-jr-65-developed-golf-courses-fostered-businesses-in-former-soviet-republics/


There are two parts to this. South Park, designed as an arboretum by FLO, was at some point turned into a weird little 9-hole golf course. This part of the plan returns the SP land to its original use, with the course moving some 2-3 miles away, onto reclaimed land. It will remain a 9-hole course and be built by JWN.


The 2nd part is the refurbishing of DPM (Delaware Park Meadows) also by JWN. There is a road (Ring Road) that encircles the meadow. 2 holes are outside the meadow, 2 tiny par three holes. Their loss would not be mourned by anyone. The meadow is home to the other 16 holes. The most important feature is the burial ground of 1812 War soldiers lost to camp fever. The marking stone lies adjacent to 2nd green/3rd tee. The land is St. Andrean in its flatness. It is earthy soil, so not great drainage. A really good, 12-14 hole course could replace what is on the ground.


Stay tuned.

[Scott Weersing]

Hmm, 34 million dollars for a course that is open from May to October?


They spent 1.5 million on Winter Park 9 and it is open year round.

[archie_struthers]

 






As Tom Doak said ......only $40 million .........what ?






"those who corrupt the public mind are just as evil as those who steal from the public purse"


Adlai Stevenson

[Andrew Keddie]

I'm afraid that this headed in the championship golf course, 7,000 yards direction when what's most appropriate for a smaller piece of property in the city would be a solid 9 hole course, a par 3 course, and a putting course.


I just got back from Pinehurst and the most fun I had may have been at Thistle Dhu and the Cradle. Delaware park is public space, how great would it be to have something like Pinehurst does that's available to everyone? Kids, older folks, family outings, dates, and even for regular golfers. Fun golf for everyone!


I reached out to the group doing this a few months back, I'm interested in contributing to what could be a great project in my city. I was brushed off and referred to their Facebook page. 

[Ronald Montesano]

They are not the most flexible bunch. They seem to have a way, and if it is not your way, then get to know the highway.


No doubt a cradle, a thistle due and a good 12 hole course would be terrific.

[Dave Doxey]

$34 million?!  Absurd.


Need to find someone with a >$2M proposal.



Golf needs to start thinking about being sustainable.


Lots of courses that cost $20M plus to build can today be bought for $2M or less.  I know of one that the HOA will lease you for $1/year.

[Rob Marshall]

Ron, it's my understanding this is supposed to be a "limited flight ball" course. Have you heard that?

[Dan Herrmann]

For what it's worth, I'd leave it alone.   This, in no way, is a Cobbs Creek type situation.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ron, it's my understanding this is supposed to be a "limited flight ball" course. Have you heard that?

Which one, Delaware Park? There is no way in he!! that the locals would go for that. Didn't work in the Cayman Islands and won't work here.

[Ronald Montesano]

For what it's worth, I'd leave it alone.   This, in no way, is a Cobbs Creek type situation.

You grew up on a course whose front nine was eviscerated, gutted in the name of industry. Holes of grandeur were replaced by a stretch hewn from baseball diamonds. You would stand in the way of improvement? I couldn't disagree with you more, but I hope that JWN and his team are able to build something sustainable and affordable. What the golfers of Buffalo don't need is Voldemort National as found in the Bronx.

[Rob Marshall]

Ron, it's my understanding this is supposed to be a "limited flight ball" course. Have you heard that?

Which one, Delaware Park? There is no way in he!! that the locals would go for that. Didn't work in the Cayman Islands and won't work here.

If your talking about the course Jack is designing. That’s the plan.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ron, it's my understanding this is supposed to be a "limited flight ball" course. Have you heard that?

Which one, Delaware Park? There is no way in he!! that the locals would go for that. Didn't work in the Cayman Islands and won't work here.

If your talking about the course Jack is designing. That’s the plan.

He is designing a new one in South Buffalo, to replace current South Park. He is also supposed to revamp Delaware Park, in north Buffalo. SP is a 9-hole layout, and the new soBuff course will also be 9 holes. The jury is still out on what he will do at DP. That's why I asked. I had not heard word 1 about a limited-flight course. In my mind, that ship sailed with aluminum shafts and the basackwerd putter.

[Rob Marshall]

It came directly from Jack. So the ship hasn't sailed to far.

[Jim Sherma]

Don’t disrespect the Basackward- I still break mine out now and then.

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