[ChipOat]

I just saw Gil Hanse and (Oakmont Head Pro) Bob Ford interviewed on national TV.

They gave an excellent two minute summary of 1) what tree growth had done to Oakmont's playability following WWII (bad) and 2) why golf courses shouldn't have trees in the first place (good).

Amen!

[Tom_Doak]

Didn't see the interview, but I doubt Gil's thinking on trees is as black-and-white as you have represented it.


It's appropriate for Oakmont to take down every tree -- that's the way it was intended to be.  But there are many other parkland golf courses where "some" trees add a great deal to the landscape.  As long as they don't shade out the primary turf areas or interfere with an intended line of play or block a view, they're not doing any harm.


I don't think Gil is going to take down every tree at Winged Foot.

[ChipOat]

Tom,

I'm sure Gil's point of view isn't 100% black & white, either, but he was probably given maximum 15 seconds to make his case which doesn't leave any time for gray areas.

If he had included the phrase, "almost always" in his two sentences, I would have included it in the subject line and still ended with, "amen!"

Since guys like you taught me about air circulation and since I have been fortunate enough to play Merion, Winged Foot and NGLA both with and without trees, I have become a huge fan of the absolute minimalist approach.

[Jason Way]

What you're leaving out of his comments was his specific reference to Fownes seeking out a piece of pastureland on which to create his golf course.  It wasn't originally a forested property from which Fownes removed all of the trees.  It was largely treeless to start, and in a misguided attempt at "beautification", the membership planted it.  I think Gil's comments were more about tree removal in the context of restoration, as well as the agronomic benefits of that restoration. 

[Sven Nilsen]

What you're leaving out of his comments was his specific reference to Fownes seeking out a piece of pastureland on which to create his golf course.  It wasn't originally a forested property from which Fownes removed all of the trees.  It was largely treeless to start, and in a misguided attempt at "beautification", the membership planted it.  I think Gil's comments were more about tree removal in the context of restoration, as well as the agronomic benefits of that restoration.

We've been through this before.  There were trees on the property that died out during the early years of the course.

Any thoughts on the original intent of Fownes as to the treeless nature of the property are pure speculation, especially in light of the tree planting that is evident in early photos of the course.

[Jason Way]

As always, appreciate the knowledge Sven.

[jeffwarne]

What you're leaving out of his comments was his specific reference to Fownes seeking out a piece of pastureland on which to create his golf course.  It wasn't originally a forested property from which Fownes removed all of the trees.  It was largely treeless to start, and in a misguided attempt at "beautification", the membership planted it.  I think Gil's comments were more about tree removal in the context of restoration, as well as the agronomic benefits of that restoration.

We've been through this before.  There were trees on the property that died out during the early years of the course.

Any thoughts on the original intent of Fownes as to the treeless nature of the property are pure speculation, especially in light of the tree planting that is evident in early photos of the course.

a little bit like Augusta where there are many, many small trees in early photos and aeriels of the course
If Jones didn't want them he certainly could've removed them rather than nurturing them


...moderation.....not group think

[Tom_Doak]

a little bit like Augusta where there are many, many small trees in early photos and aeriels of the course
If Jones didn't want them he certainly could've removed them rather than nurturing them

One of the main lessons I learned at High Pointe was how fast those little trees can get away from you.


The back forty acres [holes 11-14] looked almost like a heath when we started -- lots of ferns and native plants, with very small pine trees planted on rows in between.  We cleared the pines for the fairways at the start, and I assumed I could get back in there a few years later to clear the pines before they got too large -- but I wasn't quick enough.  The added humidity/moisture from irrigating the fairways made the trees grow about 3x as fast as they had been.  By the time I came back to deal with them, they were much bigger, and the owner didn't want the expense of clearing them all.

[Dan Herrmann]

The Hanse course I play (French Creek, opened in 2003) has about 3 trees on the course that come into play.   Not only does this make for a healthier course (no fans required), it makes for a harder course.


Why? - Trees often act like bumpers to keep wayward shots from getting too far offline.  Sure - you may have a tree in your way, but at least you can find it.   At a course with no trees, a wayward shot can go a LONG way offline, and a lost ball certainly isn't unheard of.



Courtesy Joseph Bausch - The Bausch Collection

[Steve Lang]

a little bit like Augusta where there are many, many small trees in early photos and aeriels of the course
If Jones didn't want them he certainly could've removed them rather than nurturing them

One of the main lessons I learned at High Pointe was how fast those little trees can get away from you.

The back forty acres [holes 11-14] looked almost like a heath when we started -- lots of ferns and native plants, with very small pine trees planted on rows in between.  We cleared the pines for the fairways at the start, and I assumed I could get back in there a few years later to clear the pines before they got too large -- but I wasn't quick enough.  The added humidity/moisture from irrigating the fairways made the trees grow about 3x as fast as they had been.  By the time I came back to deal with them, they were much bigger, and the owner didn't want the expense of clearing them all.

Yeh look what's sprung up there at Highpointe now!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Every trend in maintenance in my lifetime has had at its crux making life easier for the superintendent. Please cast a cautious eye now that architects are using the same to get work.

[Sean_A]

JakaB


I don't reckon high green speeds make life easier for supers.


Ciao

[Matthew Mollica]

The Hanse course I play (French Creek, opened in 2003) has about 3 trees on the course that come into play.   Not only does this make for a healthier course (no fans required), it makes for a harder course.


Why? - Trees often act like bumpers to keep wayward shots from getting too far offline.  Sure - you may have a tree in your way, but at least you can find it.   At a course with no trees, a wayward shot can go a LONG way offline, and a lost ball certainly isn't unheard of.



Courtesy Joseph Bausch - The Bausch Collection

Interesting in the context of this discussion that the green in the foreground of Joe Bausch's image is in shade!

[Mark_Fine]

I have spent a lot of time at Oakmont especially when we were doing a Master Plan for Oakmont East that sadly never got implemented.  I LOVE the treeless championship course, however, if they would have studied the old aerials closer they would have noticed that Fownes had planted shade trees near many of the tees.  Those were meant to stay.  Several prominent members at Oakmont now know this but it was too late save the trees.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matthew - that pic was taken late in the day.   Plus, you can't remove trees that aren't on the club's property

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB


I don't reckon high green speeds make life easier for supers.


Ciao

High green speeds created the monster. Long gone are the days where you could hire the laid off factory worker with a penchant for the bottle.

[Sean_A]

JakaB


I don't reckon high green speeds make life easier for supers.


Ciao

High green speeds created the monster. Long gone are the days where you could hire the laid off factory worker with a penchant for the bottle.

JakaB


Just as it isn't wise to blame Augusta for clubs deciding they want top notch conditions and Oakmont for clubs wanting trees removed...you can't blame the super for fast greens.


Eventually people will figure out that the recent trend of defending courses at the green (I am now offically bored with this concept) has gone overboard and perhaps the days of 18 crazy greens and 12+ stimping will become things of the past.


Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB


I don't reckon high green speeds make life easier for supers.


Ciao

High green speeds created the monster. Long gone are the days where you could hire the laid off factory worker with a penchant for the bottle.

JakaB


Just as it isn't wise to blame Augusta for clubs deciding they want top notch conditions and Oakmont for clubs wanting trees removed...you can't blame the super for fast greens.


Eventually people will figure out that the recent trend of defending courses at the green (I am now offically bored with this concept) has gone overboard and perhaps the days of 18 crazy greens and 12+ stimping will become things of the past.


Ciao

I like that take, hitting the ball well can still be a satisfying experience. Sadly it's so unfair to those who can't.

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