Front to Back Sloping Greens

[Jamey Bryan]

I'm a reasonably well traveled (though not by this board's standards) golfer, but my experience is heavily concentrated in the Southeast US.  I'm fascinated by Oakmont's having three greens which slope front to back.  I can think of many, many greens which fall off from a centerpoint, but I'm damned if I can think of more than a handfull which have an overall slope from front to back without a Redan or Punchbowl like backstop.

** Is this a regional aberration?

** Is it a function of modern architects recognizing approaches will not be maintained firm enough to allow the required run-up?

** Is it considered "unfair"?

I don't think I'd like to see three such greens on my everyday course, but I think I'd like to see more of them for variety (and the fun of being successful every once in a while).

Are there more of these little bastards out there than I think?

Jamey

[Rob Marshall]

Plantation course at Kapalua. I think it's the 5th hole. I wrote Ben Crenshaw about it when I got home. He sent me a nice response. He sloped it front to back because of the natural terrain. He said that it would look like a backstop if sloped back to front.

[Jordan Standefer]

I'm a big fan of front-to-backers.  I expect you'll be surprised how many good responses you might get.

16th at Dismal River (White)


12th at Wolf Point


I like these two especially since the greens are completely obscured from the approach.

[Tom_Doak]

Plantation course at Kapalua. I think it's the 5th hole. I wrote Ben Crenshaw about it when I got home. He sent me a nice response. He sloped it front to back because of the natural terrain. He said that it would look like a backstop if sloped back to front.

That's the 7th hole at Kapalua.


One of the reasons you don't see more greens that slope away is that it's hard to do with USGA greens ... it's important that the approach slope right into the green, and if it does then the greens mix can be contaminated.  But it's more feasible on sandy sites.

[Pete_Pittock]

Jamey,
I can think of six in Oregon.
Bend CC 17, Quail Valley 1, Centennial 15, Waverley 4, Reserve Vineyards(S) 15, Reserve Vineyards (N) 16.

Did we run across any at the Chattanooga Dixie Cup?

[Thomas Dai]

Would it be correct to say that Harry Colt was not adverse to having a few greens that slope down from front to rear? An example would be Whittington Heath, which has several including the really evil par-4 10th.
Atb

[Jay Mickle]

These may be in the southeast  but separated by almost 80 years. Number 2 at Pine Needles. Also numbers 6 and 10 at Dormie.

[Jaeger Kovich]

One of the reasons you don't see more greens that slope away is that it's hard to do with USGA greens ... it's important that the approach slope right into the green, and if it does then the greens mix can be contaminated.  But it's more feasible on sandy sites.

I don't follow. People don't build more greens that slope away because they are worried about greens mix being contaminated during construction?

[Thomas Dai]

On a made-for-TV/tournament course, if a green sloped severely front-to-back the positioning of the usual TV tower at the rear of the green would be compromised. Potentially lots of drops, rule queries and disruption.
Atb

[jeffwarne]

By far the most underutilized, yet simple concept in  golf courses.
I drive by 7 at NGLA 2-3 times a week-such a great green which makes the hole, yet such a simple concept-all while being part of an incredibly playable hole for higher handicappers

[Bill_McBride]

The Crenshaw course at Barton Springs near Austin has seven or eight, beautifully draped over the natural terrain.  Lots of fun.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't follow. People don't build more greens that slope away because they are worried about greens mix being contaminated during construction?

Yes, that's what I was trying to say.  Most USGA greens are built so that nothing drains onto the green, which makes it hard to create punchbowls or fallaways or backboards or sideboards.  On a back-to-front green, the back can drop off severely to cut off drainage, because it's not in play, but on a front-to-back green the approach usually feeds right onto the green ... having a front-to-back green up at the top of a slope is pretty bad design in my opinion.  So, it's going to get contaminated, so a lot of guys are not going to build it.


That's not the biggest reason for the lack of front-to-back greens, of course ... the biggest reason is that golfers complain loudly when their "good shot" does not hold the green, even when the architect did not intend for it to hold the green.

[Kris Spence]

Jamey, if you get a chance to play the new Mooresville Golf Course I did last summer, you will find the 4th green falls away in this manner.  As mentioned by others, the topography was running toward and to the front edge of the green.  A diagonal cross bunker hides the approach, players will eventually learn to land short and left feeding the ball on.  A bit of Classic golf for the Charlotte public market now that Doak's golf links is NLE.  I will post a photo when I get a chance.  The 15th at Grove Park fits the bill also.  I've had many players ask how I make a putt break up hill on that one.

[cary lichtenstein]

If you are playing a course for the first time and you really have no way of knowing the green slopes from front to back, so surprise and bogey or double

[John Mayhugh]

By far the most underutilized, yet simple concept in  golf courses.

Completely agree. 

[BCrosby]

Agree with Jeff also. Capital City Crabapple 14th is a good one.

[Phil McDade]

The James Foulis-designed Bonnie Brook in Waukegan, IL -- a true muni -- has a very good front-to-back sloping green on the par 4 428-yd par 4.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Travis used three of them at the Stamford GC in Stamford, NY.

The 242 par 3 -1st, w/a severely downhill tee shot
The 242 yd par 3 - 3rd, w/a slightly downhill tee shot (these two holes are the same yardage, but 2 clubs difference due to terrain)
The 183 yard par 3 - 8th, slightly downhill tee shot.

They're all great fun to play, and par 'feels' like birdie.   

Wyantenuck CC in Gt. Barrington has a good one - their 2nd hole, a par 3 of 246 yards. Another one where 3 feels like 2.


Orchard Creek(Paul Cowley) in Altamont NY has one on their 11th, a 165 yard downhill par 3. It's also a 3 tiered green, all sloping away from the tee.

[Keith Phillips]

The 5th at Loch Lomond is a gorgeous mid-length par 3 with a three tier green sloping front to back - very fun hole.

[Adam Lawrence]

Frank Pont's Turfvaert course in the Netherlands has something like 15 greens that are lower at the back than at the front. I think Frank was channelling Simpson, who said that no green should be higher at the back.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I don't follow. People don't build more greens that slope away because they are worried about greens mix being contaminated during construction?

Yes, that's what I was trying to say.  Most USGA greens are built so that nothing drains onto the green, which makes it hard to create punchbowls or fallaways or backboards or sideboards.  On a back-to-front green, the back can drop off severely to cut off drainage, because it's not in play, but on a front-to-back green the approach usually feeds right onto the green ... having a front-to-back green up at the top of a slope is pretty bad design in my opinion.  So, it's going to get contaminated, so a lot of guys are not going to build it.


That's not the biggest reason for the lack of front-to-back greens, of course ... the biggest reason is that golfers complain loudly when their "good shot" does not hold the green, even when the architect did not intend for it to hold the green.

I find this strange, and a bit of a stretch. I've seen a few ocd supers, and seen greens with rubber diapers, subair, hydronics and all that nonsense, and never seen anyone that paranoid about native soil contamination during grow in that a fall away green wasn't "allowed". I think there are a million cop-out reasons, but I haven't seen this one yet. It is definitely easier to draw if they are up. It is definitely easier to build a well above grade (you have to put that 16 inches and bunker cuts somewhere). It is definitely harder to build a green well at the edge of a downslope where the slope is continuing into the green. It is definitely harder to build the green false fronts or edges with a well and get it to tie in right. But soil contamination is a new one. That would make my head explode.

[Rick Emerson]

The Barn Hole at Baltimore CC has a great front to back sloped green. The barn carry to cut the corner and the bunkers to carry on the second shot are great but the green is the best feature. The entire fairway runs down hill and you can see the whole green. It's a great optical illusion. The member I played with told me to land my third shot short but I just wouldn't listen. The hole seemed so simple. Tillinghast you win.

[Bill Hyde]

#11 at Onondaga outside of Syracuse has this simple but oh-so-frustrating feature. I love it but invariably ended up over this green almost every time!

[Tom_Doak]

I love it but invariably ended up over this green almost every time!

But that's the place to miss ... chipping back uphill to the hole.  That's why I like fallaway greens so much.  The guy who tries to sneak one onto the front edge so he won't go over, runs the risk of leaving the ball short, and possibly in the rough to one side, with a downhill chip.  The mid-handicap player is usually better off just to play to the middle of the green and chip back.

[Tom_Doak]

I find this strange, and a bit of a stretch.

Well, how many front-to-back greens have you built in clay soils?  And was this a problem?


I believe I've seen it done a lot more than you, and I've seen a few contaminated.  If you've got all the money in the world, no problem.  And remember, it isn't just the superintendent complaining about it, but also the contractor.