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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you could change any golf hole on your golf course without repercussion which one would it be? What an impossible question to answer for a young super. Since most of you are not young and hardly super, what would you do?
Or, imagine yourself as a young super working at any of the great courses we all know and create a scenario.

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I wish C&C has designed 14 at Warren http://warrengolfcourse.com/the-course/no-14/ as a Redan. 


(FYI: The donor for 14 supports the study of Europe at ND, so a Redan makes even more sense.  The family's donations are public information, by the way.)

Peter Pallotta

JK - even though he is wiser, kinder and infinitely more experienced in the golf industry, I have to take a different view than my friend Joe H on this. That young super isn't a naive rube who foolishly answered a question honestly; I think he is smart and ambitious and knew exactly what he was saying -- smart enough to read the tea leaves both locally and across the industry, and ambitious enough to stake his claim as someone willing to shoulder more responsibility and give golfers what they seem to want. That we might disagree with him and his approach, or that time and changing fashions/tastes might in 20 years have him wishing that he'd taken a different route doesn't mean he is wrong or misguided now. He is just in the majority and simply speaking the conventional wisdom -- traits that have led to successful careers for thousands and millions of people across hundreds of industries for many decades now.

Peter

PS - to answer your question: the opening hole at my local course is a very gentle and short Par 5 with a benign green.  I would change that green by adding 3-4 feet of slope/contour and speeding it up to 11. The members would love it (I'm often paired with members, and the younger ones especially complain that the course is "too easy" and that several holes are too short.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 11:21:50 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0

Holston Hills #2, supposed to be a cape hole





I would move the back tee backwards about twenty yards, make the current orange where the back tee is, shave the bank and watch people have fun.  This tree...
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would change the often changed 17th at Kingsley. I would take the left hand side off the tee and return to fairway all the way back down the hill (this was done ~5 years ago and then allowed to return to native 2 years later).

http://www.kingsleyclub.com/course-tour/17th-hole.html



I would leave fairway on the right to the top of the hill but allow the steep drop-off to return to native on that side (Left below)


Currently I think the long hitter is rewarded too much on this Par 5 -- they hit it over the  hill and it runs all the way down to the preferred position for their second from  ~180 yards. This would be their approx. angle from taking it over the hill to left. Tougher angle in over the ridge to the left of the green.  You could still lay-up to the top of the hill to the right and take a longer club from the better angle.


Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Though I kind of got roped into it, I'm the consultant now on my home course, Crystal Downs, so I have to provide answers to this question every year.


We are working to expand some of the greens and try to get more hole locations that are usable at the margins.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
I wouldn't alter where I play (Brantford G&CC).

It needs a number of agronomic details addressed.
That would be a far better use of money...

So that's what I would do if I were completely in charge.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
JK - even though he is wiser, kinder and infinitely more experienced in the golf industry, I have to take a different view than my friend Joe H on this. That young super isn't a naive rube who foolishly answered a question honestly; I think he is smart and ambitious and knew exactly what he was saying -- smart enough to read the tea leaves both locally and across the industry, and ambitious enough to stake his claim as someone willing to shoulder more responsibility and give golfers what they seem to want. That we might disagree with him and his approach, or that time and changing fashions/tastes might in 20 years have him wishing that he'd taken a different route doesn't mean he is wrong or misguided now. He is just in the majority and simply speaking the conventional wisdom -- traits that have led to successful careers for thousands and millions of people across hundreds of industries for many decades now.

Peter

PS - to answer your question: the opening hole at my local course is a very gentle and short Par 5 with a benign green.  I would change that green by adding 3-4 feet of slope/contour and speeding it up to 11. The members would love it (I'm often paired with members, and the younger ones especially complain that the course is "too easy" and that several holes are too short.)

Ah Peter...I think if you, and everyone else, goes back and re-reads the young mans words, they will understand that he likely said what the Real Matt Shaf(f)er and most every other superintendent is doing, even if they aren't saying it......get the greens faster on special events without sacrificing plant health, and managing golfers' perceptions of what ideal green speeds are. No where does he use the term "super fast" as TD loosely interpreted. Nor did he advocate getting all greens faster all the time. How is that so wrong?

And so what if he doesn't like the 4th green at Lost Dunes? You tend to applaud the outlier, the brave ones who think different and aren't afraid to say so. But it seems you've been spending too much time in private discussions with the wrong crowd, and allowed others to influence your otherwise impeccable wisdom and perspective. (Last line entirely in jest!)

Just as we ought to appreciate that many courses are different than The Old Course, as you wisely stated, should we not also be glad that others step away from GCA groupthink and speak whats on their mind, without repercussion? Matter of fact, that's the irony of Tom Doak calling out this guy for having a contrary opinion to his own. Being outspoken ought to endear him to Tom, but apparently that's not how it works.

So....I wouldn't change a thing, other than hiring a proof reader on publicity pieces.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCowan

Joe,

  Epic post, u really dug deep and knocked it out of the park. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 07:22:20 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Matter of fact, that's the irony of Tom Doak calling out this guy for having a contrary opinion to his own. Being outspoken ought to endear him to Tom, but apparently that's not how it works.


Getting greens faster is a contrarian position?


I don't care if Mr. Shafer has opinions about my designs, but he's not exactly being a contrarian by wanting to change the most severe green on the course.  The contrarian position was to build it in the first place.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Matter of fact, that's the irony of Tom Doak calling out this guy for having a contrary opinion to his own. Being outspoken ought to endear him to Tom, but apparently that's not how it works.

The contrarian position was to build it in the first place.


When you built Lost Dunes, was it contrarian for the sake of establishing yourself in the business or contrarian for the sake of the golf course?


There is a chance that in building hundreds of greens over the years, you screwed up one green???
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0



Back to the discussion. With a nod to Oakmont and Streamsong, I would remove every tree between 10/11 and 18, and then have two cuts, greens and everything else.


That is the most dramatic piece of the property and I would just let every ball roll every which way....
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hard to say because I think the property could support a total redesign which would be better than what is there presently.  Today, I would probably opt for altering the 10th.  Now it is a forced carry over a large dune.  I wouldn't mind seeing the OOB line left being better utilized with the fairway widened significantly..this gives low ball hitters a chance to make the hole longer, by playing left, but then can get around the dune. I would also move the green about 40 yards right into the duneland.  Essentially, I would widen the hole to take advantage of the present features (the OOB and more dunes) while still giving the hack a way around having to play a big forced tee shot.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hard to say because I think the property could support a total redesign which would be better than what is there presently.  Today, I would probably opt for altering the 10th.  Now it is a forced carry over a large dune.  I wouldn't mind seeing the OOB line left being better utilized with the fairway widened significantly..this gives low ball hitters a chance to make the hole longer, by playing left, but then can get around the dune. I would also move the green about 40 yards right into the duneland.  Essentially, I would widen the hole to take advantage of the present features (the OOB and more dunes) while still giving the hack a way around having to play a big forced tee shot.
Ciao


I know the hole you mean and yes please.


At my usual places, tree/scrub and ornamental flower bed removal, some ditch closing, some ditch re-opening.

Atb
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 09:17:13 AM by Thomas Dai »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,


Good topic for a thread. During the construction of Sand Ridge in Cleveland I spent lots of time on site and, of course, had my own ideas how things might have been done differently. Rather than identify any one hole I would change, I would probably want the entire concept of relying on relatively flat, very fast greens to be changed. Even Tom Marzolf must have had some concerns about this; the contour of the 12th green was supposed to offer some needed variety to the rest of the course.


That said, I do think Marzolf's work on the relatively flat 15th green is one of the most impressive architectural features I have seen in my golf travels. I hate the green, but will admit the thing is sneaky brilliant. I just think Marzolf and Fazio got it backwards. The entire course should have been built with more contoured greens and 15 rather than 12 should have been the exception.
Tim Weiman

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would change the tee shot on the par five number nine at Ballyhack. For most of us it is a lay up short of a bunker. I'd like to see thsee nbunker either removed or moved so bigger hitters can get home in two. I'd still keep the fairway narrow or pinched in but allow the driver to be used off the tee. A lay up on a par five leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Other than that I would change anything else.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
To just address the question, I am very happy with our Ed Lawrence Packard course design.  I wouldn't really do anything significant to the playing corridors and shaping of FWs or greens.  But, I'd remove perhaps 50% of now very old red oaks in dogleg grove on our 18th on the right handers slice side, because they are situated so that about any players tee shot that isn't placed very well and longer than 240yds are otherwise overly compromised to make a good shot towards the green.  Given a parkland terrain, I won't quibble with removal of too many trees and give them their due respect as integral to forcing good shot making... low under limbs, shaped left and right around trees and playing away from them, etc.  But, I think they need to be thinned about 50% to challenge you to make a good shot, not a chip out sideways otherwise a miracle shot, 1  in a 100.

Otherwise, our course is a great test for men from mid to higher handies from member tees and excellent test for low handies from tips.  It would also be great for low handie ladies who can hit the ball off tee 190-200.  However for average ladies, it needs new ladies teeing grounds more intelligently placed. 

Finally, a few problematic drainage areas would be in order.  Nothing serious... just a little more budget to get some extra drain lines in perpetually wet areas, primarily in well visited LZs or rough and very few areas of FWs. 

So, chainsaws and ditchwitch work...  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
As Riverfront is now over 15 years old, I can think of two issues:
1. Green 9 needs it's hump cut down for more pinnable locations
2. Green 5 needs slope reduction next to a big bunker for the same reason
3. As much as I do not like it, the poor poor practice range is too popular and needs matts at the back of it for use in the wintertime to prevent it from getting to beat up.  The practice range drainage is not good.

The course gets a lot of play.

I wonder how much longer the Bent Grass can hold out.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner