An Assistant Superintendent Thinks My Green Is Too Severe

[Joe Hancock]

It bothers me that this young man gave his honest opinion, at a fairly early point of his career and his life and gets called out, piled on and even a recommendation to be shot....great timing on that bit of humor. If any of you gave him the benefit of the doubt and a few more years of living the dream, he'd likely give the very wise, correct answer that all of you obviously know. But he's young, and maybe, just maybe hasn't had the mentoring concerning architectural nuances and preferences that so many of us have had.

I hope he never reads this thread.

[Bill_McBride]

His views are probably more of the norm than the exception amoung all superintendants, if I had to guess.


Unfortuneatley, this is why so many people complain about greens with significant slope. I've heard many times people who say "you can't put a pin anywhere on the front half of the green, can't you just fold it back, add some dirt to flatten it, and fold it back in place?" When you suggest perhaps just slowing down the green speed, the same people look at you like you're an idiot.

An example would certainly be the 8th green at Pasatiempo, but I'm not sure the front of that green could ever be pinned.  I think Neal Meagher read that slope at 6% when he laid his inclinometer on it years ago.

[Carl Rogers]

Would Mr. Shafer's opinion be the same if he was in the American South and faced with many 90+ degree days in a row?  I assume that Lost Dunes has bent grass.

[Don Mahaffey]

It bothers me that this young man gave his honest opinion, at a fairly early point of his career and his life and gets called out, piled on and even a recommendation to be shot....great timing on that bit of humor. If any of you gave him the benefit of the doubt and a few more years of living the dream, he'd likely give the very wise, correct answer that all of you obviously know. But he's young, and maybe, just maybe hasn't had the mentoring concerning architectural nuances and preferences that so many of us have had.

I hope he never reads this thread.

Joe, while not surprised by your post as I know you to be a very considerate and emphatic person, he did say some interesting things that make for good discussion.

[John Kavanaugh]

Would Mr. Shafer's opinion be the same if he was in the American South and faced with many 90+ degree days in a row?  I assume that Lost Dunes has bent grass.

Carl,


You may be as shocked as I was to see permanent green side fans installed to grow grass at Lost Dunes. Seeing fans in Michigan was when I knew I had lost the fight.

[Joe Hancock]

It bothers me that this young man gave his honest opinion, at a fairly early point of his career and his life and gets called out, piled on and even a recommendation to be shot....great timing on that bit of humor. If any of you gave him the benefit of the doubt and a few more years of living the dream, he'd likely give the very wise, correct answer that all of you obviously know. But he's young, and maybe, just maybe hasn't had the mentoring concerning architectural nuances and preferences that so many of us have had.

I hope he never reads this thread.

Joe, while not surprised by your post as I know you to be a very considerate and emphatic person, he did say some interesting things that make for good discussion.
You and I have had a few discussions about this sort of thing, you remember about topics like the guy who triple mows and triple rolls for a Supt chapter meeting leaving the greens practically unplayable. I agree there is a bit of piling on, but put me solidly in the camp of appreciating the guys who provide great surfaces without leaving their mark at every turn.

Don,

You and I have had discussions that I hope never see the light of day! But they were confidential...in private...and they stay that way out of respect and decency.

The thread title is telling, and unfortunate. IMO.

[Don Mahaffey]

Joe,
I edited it out, even though I feel like there wasn't much there, I don't want to betray anything with you.

Having said that, unlike you and others here, I'm assuming he is a smart guy, college educated, probably with a turf degree, hired by a good supt and good club. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is an intelligent guy who knows exactly what he was saying, and I know I've heard it from many others in the business as well.


You and I have been Supts. We know the hours, the lack of recognition, the unfair criticism, but we also know it is about the game and the people who play it. Saying you want to soften a green, a green that has been around for awhile, is the worst part of our profession. I'm not saying that to get personal with the guy at the top of this thread, I'm saying it because it continues to be what is taking the interest out of our game. After Dan Lucas is gone do you want to see the 13th at Kingsley softened? Dan has taken care of it for years, but the next guy might make his claim on getting the greens 12+ everyday. He might say it is too hard to mow at .060 and too hard to spray the chemicals he'll need to spray every 7 days all season long.
Extreme green speeds are the dumbest thing in golf. They lead to boring greens and expensive construction and maintenance costs, but it is what is being taught in our universities and pushed by the "golf industry" because it is about the business of golf and not the game. So while I am sorry if you felt I betrayed any trust, I am not sorry at being sick and tired of extreme maintenance being treated like it is exceptional or smart. It is not, it's dumb, and it does nothing positive for the game. 

[BCowan]

do you want to see the 13th at Kingsley softened?

No, I want to see the bunker in front of the green removed, which would make the hole Great IMO.  "There is no money in doing less''

[Joe Hancock]

Don

I just don't know if he understands the implications of what he is saying, or if he understands why he feels the way he does. I bet he is smart enough to reconsider his position once he learns more. That's all. All that other stuff you said I agree with. I was smart at 25, but at 55 I look back and understand how little I knew. At 75, I will look back on today and think the same thing. I wasn't implying that I thought he lacked intelligence, just that he's young.

No need to edit anything....you were in line.

[Mark Pavy]

15.  If you could change any golf hole on your golf course without repercussion which one would it be?
   A.  The fourth green at Lost Dunes has a 9 foot drop from back to front.  I would like to see that monster redesigned.

Doesn't the guy who designed the course having a sook on an architectural forum count as repercussion?

 

[mike_beene]

Doesn't pace of play become an issue? Seems when greens get crazy under 4 hours becomes 4 and one half without anyone even noticing.

[Sam Andrews]

Seems to me that the Stimp metre is the fly in the ointment here. It promotes an obsession with a high number irrespective of whether it is appropriate. Perhaps what is needed is a True metre. I suspect that most players want greens at a reasonable speed and that their putt travels along the line they hit it and doesn't bobble and bounce off because the green has not be kept well (spike and pitch marks excepted).

[Sean_A]

It bothers me that this young man gave his honest opinion, at a fairly early point of his career and his life and gets called out, piled on and even a recommendation to be shot....great timing on that bit of humor. If any of you gave him the benefit of the doubt and a few more years of living the dream, he'd likely give the very wise, correct answer that all of you obviously know. But he's young, and maybe, just maybe hasn't had the mentoring concerning architectural nuances and preferences that so many of us have had.

I hope he never reads this thread.

Joe

I am ant-fast greens as the next guy (and I know I am in the minority on this issue), but I still reckon what happens at clubs is between the membership and the super.  I don't want to see greens altered for the sake of speed, but its not my money.  I am with you.  Plus..the title is harsh....Not the Real Matt Shafer.  I know it wasn't meant this way, but when we take into account all the piling on...it sure can seem like the real Matt Shafer would never hold such silly opinions.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Agreed. Maybe the title could have been The Other Matt Shafer. Also agree with Joe's comments. The reaction does seem a bit over the top. Maybe I think that because unlike most on this site, I think the greens on the average course over here (UK) could be doing with being quicker most of the time.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

I'll agree, the thread title was a little harsh.  But since the name Matt Shaffer is taken in this business -- the super at Merion spells his name with two f's -- I needed to be clear from the get-go that it was someone different I was talking about.  And, mostly, I wanted to attract the attention of superintendents to this thread, more than the usual crowd.


As usual, John K has it right -- "don't talk to the press," or at least be careful what you say, as we've all learned on this forum at one point or another.  It is harsh to put his name out here in the spotlight of a public forum, but I've been to Lost Dunes a few times since he has worked there, and he has never come up to say hello, so he probably shouldn't have suggested redesigning one of my best greens in public, rather than in private.  I'll change the thread title tomorrow, to hopefully spare him from future Google searches.

[Adam Lawrence]

I'll agree, the thread title was a little harsh.  But since the name Matt Shaffer is taken in this business -- the super at Merion spells his name with two S's --

Or even two Fs.


love, the press

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Over the years, you have to agree the 4th green has caused the most controversy at Lost Dunes.  Hasn't Jeff approached you before about changing the green?  I wonder how much of this is how much he's hearing from players with loud voices.

Personally, I've always loved the 4th green.  The hole is a reachable par 5 for many players but the green and angles into the green provide numerous approach/recovery options.  What I've always wondered is if the green was surrounded by rough that would hold shots up on the slopes instead of the fairway height grass that shrugs shots off if that would change player's minds.  That's certainly not something I would ever like to see but I think the shaved slope on the left of the green causes as much controversy as the slopes of the green.

Ken:


The only time Jeff Shearer and I had a discussion about the 4th green at Lost Dunes was right after it was shaped and before it was seeded.  He asked me if I was sure about that green?  [That's all he said.]  Jeff was a great client in that regard ... many would have been stronger in suggesting their own opinion, he just wanted to hear what I was thinking.


I think what I said to him was "Well, people are going to criticize the greens here, but maybe that one will draw all their attention so they'll leave the others alone."   


It's certainly one of the most severe greens I've ever built.  It's the culmination of a short par-5, and most of the trouble around it is short grass, as you described.  I agree that the short grass off the big bank on the left gets in players' heads just as much as the putting contours.  The contours are only severe if you are putting up to the back tier, or down from it [the latter being a shot which you should never leave yourself].  They could use the back tier less often if it was really a problem, but it seems like they use the back locations at least two days a week, if not three.  So the members must be okay with it.  [Plus it's managed to survive 17 years now.]  I think Jack Nicklaus' team even built an homage to it at Harbor Shores, from what I've heard.  I've never stopped in there, but their greens were shaped by the same guy who did the shaping at Lost Dunes, Jerame Miller.


What was it Dr. MacKenzie wrote?  Something about how the best holes should give rise to the greatest controversy?  Maybe I'll send Matt a book on architecture by way of apology.

[Tom_Doak]

I'll agree, the thread title was a little harsh.  But since the name Matt Shaffer is taken in this business -- the super at Merion spells his name with two S's --

Or even two Fs.


love, the media

Thanks for the correction!

[Ryan Coles]

What if the Greenkeeper was speaking from a maintenance perspective? And as Don indicated was referencing difficulty in spraying / mowing.

Rightly or wrongly most GK's would comment firstly from a maintenance perspective before fretting about architectural intent.

Nowhere does he advocate building flat greens and I don't see anything perverse in a GK enjoying the challenging aspects of his job.

[Greg Tallman]

Maybe I'll send Matt a book on architecture by way of apology.

Really? That would be as backhanded as it comes.

He was asked a direct question and it seems you would only accept the response of "Well, Mr. Doak is among the finest designers of our time so I'm not certain it is my place to opine on the actual design."

Come on Tom, your words carry weight and might well cause that young man problems. Was that your intent?

[Tom_Doak]

He was asked a direct question and it seems you would only accept the response of "Well, Mr. Doak is among the finest designers of our time so I'm not certain it is my place to opine on the actual design."

Come on Tom, your words carry weight and might well cause that young man problems. Was that your intent?

Greg:


If that was my intent I would have called his boss, or my client.  Short of that, I don't really think I'm causing him problems, and that was not my intent.


I understand he was asked a question by an interviewer and I had no problem that he responded, as I said.  It was the combination of that response, followed by his next one, that caused me to post.  I think I made that pretty clear.


[And sending someone who's expressed an interest in architecture a copy of MacKenzie's book is not backhanded in any way.]

[Tom_Doak]

What if the Greenkeeper was speaking from a maintenance perspective? And as Don indicated was referencing difficulty in spraying / mowing.

Rightly or wrongly most GK's would comment firstly from a maintenance perspective before fretting about architectural intent.

Nowhere does he advocate building flat greens and I don't see anything perverse in a GK enjoying the challenging aspects of his job.

I think you're wrong in your second paragraph.  A lot of superintendents are good players and they have a definite architectural opinion.  Sometimes that's a great thing, sometimes not, it all depends on their opinion 

I've been lucky to work with some of the best superintendents on the planet.  We are constantly asking them about how they maintain things and if they're okay with maintaining the features that we are building.  Ken Nice was the first of several who always had the attitude, "I can figure out how to make it work," even when we are the ones suggesting a change to make it easier.  Those are the kind of guys we recommend to our clients.

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  Perhaps it wouldn't be an "architectural change" but I would have liked to hear him comment on the amount of water used on the fairways.  Speed of greens appears to trump firm and fast on a course I really like.

[Ryan Coles]

Out of interest, do any greens on the highly regarded courses stateside run slower than 9?

And what pace does the real Matt Shafer keep his at?

[Ken Fry]

Ken:


The only time Jeff Shearer and I had a discussion about the 4th green at Lost Dunes was right after it was shaped and before it was seeded.  He asked me if I was sure about that green?  [That's all he said.]  Jeff was a great client in that regard ... many would have been stronger in suggesting their own opinion, he just wanted to hear what I was thinking.


I think what I said to him was "Well, people are going to criticize the greens here, but maybe that one will draw all their attention so they'll leave the others alone."   


It's certainly one of the most severe greens I've ever built.  It's the culmination of a short par-5, and most of the trouble around it is short grass, as you described.  I agree that the short grass off the big bank on the left gets in players' heads just as much as the putting contours.  The contours are only severe if you are putting up to the back tier, or down from it [the latter being a shot which you should never leave yourself].  They could use the back tier less often if it was really a problem, but it seems like they use the back locations at least two days a week, if not three.  So the members must be okay with it.  [Plus it's managed to survive 17 years now.]  I think Jack Nicklaus' team even built an homage to it at Harbor Shores, from what I've heard.  I've never stopped in there, but their greens were shaped by the same guy who did the shaping at Lost Dunes, Jerame Miller.


What was it Dr. MacKenzie wrote?  Something about how the best holes should give rise to the greatest controversy?  Maybe I'll send Matt a book on architecture by way of apology.

Tom,


For some reason I recalled another uproar to get the 4th green changed after the course was opened for a few years.  I'm glad nothing has been altered.  I enjoyed time with Jeff.  You always know knew where he stood.


Thanks for mentioning Jerame Miller again.  I met him at the opening of Harbor Shores.  I didn't know prior to meeting him that he was involved in Lost Dunes.  One similarity between the two courses, everyone always brings up the greens.


Ken