Is the 17th at Oakmont the best short par 4 in America?

[Tim Martin]

Is it even the best uphill short par 4 on a 17th hole? Essex County Club 17 is a fantastic short 4 and rivals 17 Oakmont. That said I am a fan of both.

[Phil McDade]

I don't hate these holes, but the opening post asked if the 17th at Oakmont was the best short par-4 in America.  There are two better ones at Pacific Dunes ... and neither of them is the best short par-4 in America, either. 

Not exactly an objective opinion....not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Tim_Weiman]

The U.S. Open is approaching, at the best course for hosting the nation's championship , so maybe it's time for some GCA discussion on Oakmont.


I'm fond of short, gambling par 4s. Watching the U.S. Mid-Am a few years ago at Milwaukee CC, I was struck by the 9th there, a terrific little par 4 playing back to the clubhouse. Jack Nicklaus said Riveria's 10th was his favorite short par 4 that he's ever played, and Ben Crenshaw was particularly fond of Merion East's 10th. One of my personal favorites is Lawsonia's 8th, where the more dangerous route toward the green is obvious off the tee, and the more appropriate and better line is hidden.


Watching the flyovers the USGA has posted, I'm struck once again by how neat the 17th at Oakmont looks: http://www.usopen.com/en_US/course/hole.html?n=17


This is just great architecture:


-- A sharply uphill tee shot...
-- to a fairway that cants severely right-to-left...
-- toward all of the fairway bunkering -- deep things which the rough (per Davis of the USGA) will not inhibit poorly hit tee shots from finding...
-- with a green site angled sharply from front left to back right...
-- which means you want to hug the side of the fairway (left) where you are most likely to encounter trouble off the tee...
-- because it opens up the line of attack into the green...
-- yet those who play safely off the tee out to the right are left with a delicate pitch over some of the course's deepest bunkering, including Big Mouth, the deepest (and meanest?) bunker on the course...
-- to a green that plays more narrow, and thus the need for a much more precise shot into it, the safer you play off the tee...
-- and will play to a length of 317 yards, short enough for some to go for the green off the tee.


I also love how it's placed in the round -- a gambling hole amid a mean finishing stretch of 15-16-17-18, and a hole where your position on the leaderboard may determine how one attacks it.


What say you? How does the 17th rate among short par 4s in America? (For definition's sake, let's limit this to par 4s under 340 yds.)Maybe Ryan Farrow (still posting here!) can regale us with tales of fly-mowing Big Mouth.


I enjoy watching U.S. Opens at Oakmont more than almost any other course on the rota. My favorite hole to watch will be the 17th.

Phil,


Not sure which is the best, but the green just seems too small to me.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,


Not sure which is the best, but the green just seems too small to me.

Yet in the 2007 Open it was the 4th easiest green to hit on the course:
http://usga.usopen.com/2007/scoring/uni/csuma.htm


Small greens are also, in some cases, easier to putt. Sure enough, only three greens had fewer average putts per round in 1997 than the 17th.


Do the penal and awkward features of the hole make up for the (relative) ease of hitting the green and negotiating it once on?


The course also yielded two of the seven eagles at the 2007 Open, and -- given its low overall scoring average -- presumably more birdies than most other holes on the course. Yet it still played above par for the tournament (4.066). Isn't that at least an indication of a good, gambling short par 4 -- a hole that will give up a good score with very good play, but trouble lurks for the loose or poorly played shot?

[PCCraig]

I don't hate these holes, but the opening post asked if the 17th at Oakmont was the best short par-4 in America.  There are two better ones at Pacific Dunes ... and neither of them is the best short par-4 in America, either. 

Tom Doak,


What would you consider the best short par-4 in America, then?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,


What would you consider the best short par-4 in America, then?

Where do I start?


Pine Valley:  2, 8, 17
Merion East: 1, 10, 11
Crystal Downs:  5, 7, 15
Cypress Point:  8, 9, 13
Riviera 10
Sand Hills:  7, 8
Ballyneal:  7, 12
Pacific Dunes:  6, 16


I'd pick any of those over 17 at Oakmont. 


I don't know that it makes any sense to pick just one of them -- there are different types of holes within this group -- but for today, I'll pick the 9th at Cypress Point.  I've hit driver off the tee.  Or 4-wood.  Or 4-iron.  Or 7-iron, on one occasion.

[Ronald Montesano]

I was assistant golf coach to our school's art teacher for about 6 years. I took over as head coach 7 years ago. About 4 years ago, I had my epiphany: he was a better green-reader than I because he was an art teacher. His ability with shapes, space, perception, perspective (and on and on) was natural, innate, constant, unwavering. He saw every nuance in the topography of the green that my, on-a-good-day, two-dimensional depth perception could never hope to make out.


I chuckle when I think back to what I tried to see what I could never hope to visualize; it's kin to GCA aficionados and other architecture amateurs who take on the professionals. That's what we're doing, understand, when we ask shapers and architects to list holes that are better. We like the taste of bananas, but they know why bananas taste that way and why other foods don't taste like bananas.






If you don't like bananas, I can't help you.