[cary lichtenstein]

Forrest:

Sorry for sounding too harsh and snotty. I'll try of soften my comments appropriately in the future.

All I was trying to convey is the fact that I've played Norman's course in Naples at the Ritz and everyone I know was dissappointed, ditto with the Medalist in Hobe Sound, too very difficult, and he keeps changing holes there. In another story I think he did an entire course and the developers were so disappointed that they bulldozed it before it opened and gave it to Tom Fazio to redo.

6 of us went to play Doonbeg, and found a lot of fault with the routing and design. Yes there were also some real good holes.

But when someone holds himself out as an expert, charges big fees, and they develop hotels, residental deveoplments around his talent, I think he should be expected to produce consistent excellence. Perhaps with the changes it will turn out to be a wonderful courses, especially after it matures.

If it does, I will surely be the first to say I was wrong

[Forrest Richardson]

The danger in associating good, great and awful design with a particular architect is the very pulse of what's wrong with the mindset of a significant number of contributors to this site.

I appreciate your comments, quasssi. Again — I have no obligation to approve of or defend Norman's office in their work, nor any association with Doonbeg. But, as a fan of routing, I take exception with the idea that it is awful. Different? Yes.

Back to the "danger" comment. What good does it to do continually speak about a particular designer rather than the individual effort? I cannot think of many positive results from such discussion as the idea of golf and courses is to experience them for what they are and what they offer — not first and foremost the man, woman or team behind the work. This is also true of buildings and movies. We lose sight of good when we embrace anything and everything that Woody Allen creates ... rather than holding out for what is good based on a movie's story and creative value.

Was your foursome drinking?

[cary lichtenstein]

Red Gatorade

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, that explains it.

[moth]

Quassi,

No to defend Norman but the correct story of the course that got bulldozed and changed to a FAZIO course I believe involved a CHANGE IN DEVELOPER - and the new developer figured a different approach for a different market was in order. I think what happened was more a testimony to the crazy golf economy there in the states (or the previous crazy economy) rather than some poor job on Normans part.

[cary lichtenstein]

Brett:
Thanks for the information. I am now practicing english prose and taking the high road.

I'll go out on the limb on the positive side. The first time I was in Ireland, about a dozen years ago, everyone was bad mouthing the new course at Ballybunion (Cashen Course). We never played it as a result.

Last year, when we arrived to play the old Ballybunion course, our travel agent screwed up and we played the Cashen Course.

I thought it was terrific. Giant dunes, the scale, height, I had never seen. I loved the layout, eye candy(one of my favorite terms), shot values, variety. I thought it was in the top 5 in Ireland.

The only negative was the difficultly in walking the course, and the pain in your legs if you hit it off the fairway and you had to climb up in the tall grass to find your ball.

Other than that, it was a terrific experience.

[Matt_Ward]

The final six holes ...

#13 (500 yards) Par-5
Superb hole. A blind tee shot awaits and there is a bit more room on the right than you might think. Generally, the hole plays into the prevailing wind and if you'r fortunate to get you tee shot near the fairway bunker on the right you have to decide whether to take you rsecond up the narrow neck that leads itself to the green. A well done hole with plenty of options and scoring challenges.

#14 (111 yards) Par-3
I would rate the 14th as one of the finest short par-3's (under 150 yards) I have ever played. You stand on tee and the green beckons you on to play a dangerous approach. I played it with the pin in the deep position and the wind was indeed howling. You must not have any fear in playing the hole because it's quite possible that you're round can come to a crashing halt here. In calm air the hole still has character but when the wind freshens it's a treat to relish time after time.

#15 (412 yards) Par-4
Solid two-shotter but there is likely going to be some changes with the center placed fairway bunker that neatly conceals itself until you finish in it. The green is neatly situated between high mounds and you simply cannot underclub if your shot fades just a tiny bit.

#16 (205 yards) Par-3
Likely, the most mundane hole on the inward nine. The hole features a green set on a diagonal with two deep bunkers protecting the left side.

#17 (429 yards) Par-4
Very straightforward hole that requires you to play near the right side of the tee but you must avoid the cluster of bunkers that guard that position.

#18 (435 yards) Par-4
Very solid closer. The position of the tee immediately adjacent to the water makes for a stirring location indeed. The tee shot is rewarded if you can boldly hit down the right side but the slightest push is in major trouble. Two bunkers protect the green on the left and there is a bit of room to roll the ball on to the right half of the green.

I thoroughly enjoyed Doonbeg -- yes, the routing could have been improved just a tad but all in all the layout has a good share of outstanding holes that make you relish the good shots whenever you hit them.

[ddavid426]

Setting the course and routing aside, was anyone dissappointed like me that when you arrived you were greated by a New Jersey accented barking caddie master and then given a sales pitch for the new lodge that is being built?  Felt like I was playing any resort course in the US.  Is it really necessary to Americanize these courses just because there is American money behind them?

[Forrest Richardson]

I thought that caddiemaster was delightful. I was not given a sales pitch, but would have taken it like the annoying waves whenever I have to sleep in a damned hotel room by the ocean.

[Bill Gayne]

I think the caddiemaster and staff at Doonbeg do a great job in trying to serve the customer. They are trying to develop a first rate caddie program. It's a young course and they have a handful of more experienced caddies that come down from Lahinch or have worked since pre-opening. The remainder, I believe are junior caddies that are still learning. My experince has been that the staff listens to the customer and takes appropiate actions being something small or making changes to the course. Doonbeg is a delightful place to play golf and no I'm not a low single digit handicap.

As far as "Americanizing" goes, I've seen this term applied in other threads also. It's really globalization of management and it has been going on since the end of WWII in other industries. Over the last ten-fifteen years it has really impacted the golf industry. It's not going away. Even in Ireland. An example in another industry is Guinness, which most people think of the quintessential Irish drink, it may be brewed in Dublin but it's owned by a global conglomerate in London. Places and brands that people think will never be subject to globalization become globalized due to economic demands. There's no reason to think that the golf industry in Ireland will be exempt.

[Forrest Richardson]

My caddie was "Mikey", a small 13-year old young man who was delightful. His major blunder was to put a 4-wood in my hands on No. 15. Pulled left and had to walk back to the tee after we gave up finding my only lost ball of the afternoon. Mikey was a 15-hcp. and played at Spanish Point, a very quaint place just up the road. I was impressed that Doonbeg embraced the youth of the area and was taking strides to get them involved — it sure would be easy to put up a fence and keep the young people away.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt forgot to describe No. 15 as a bottleneck. The opening to the green is flanked by massive dunes and little patience for error.

Of particular sport is trying to miss the local surfers who insist on using a trail that crosses the hole short of the green.

This "missing" was difficult to adhere to as my playing companion had been in the midst of a backswing off the back of No. 3 and was honked at by a couple of dudes in an old Morris who were using the same trail. Upon returning to the trail at the end of the round I could not tell if he meant to hit a low screaming shot into the green, or whether this was inadvertent.

This matter should be cleared up soon as we heard the courts will once and for all decide that the public can use other trails to the beach instead of the one that the developers now own and have a right to control. If not...well, the sport's back on.

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

Forrest-
We had Mikey in our group too.  Nice kid and a good caddie.  As far as the "Americanized" aspect, the two caddies we had at Lahinch said they left Lahinch to caddy at Doonbeg only to return because of the management of the course and caddies specifically.  Said that is was being managed like some sister course in Kiawah which slips my mind.  Thought that was an interesting piece of info.  I agree with Matt that it is a solid course and very challenging throughout.  I think the routing could have been improved from what the locals were saying if they could have ignored the snails (which was all b.s. in both our caddies opinions).

[Tim_Weiman]

BillG:

Actually, I wonder if golf in the United States should be importing some concepts from Ireland not the other way around.

Take Arthur Spring's Castleisland, for example. For two million euros, the 400 members got the land, golf course, clubhouse and no debt.

Not bad for responding to "economic demands". Much better than the American CCFAD concept.

[Bill Gayne]

Tim, I agree completely with importing ideas from other countries if they can be successfully replicated here in the United States. The drive for revenue and marketshare will make that happen if customers expect and demand it. The real key is the willingness of people to take risk and take ideas that may be customary in other places and gamble that they will work in the United States. Acceptance may be slow (and cash flow) but if they are sound ideas they should work in the long run. (However, I believe Keynes also said that not to worry about the long run because we are all dead anyway.)

[Tim_Weiman]

BillG:

Thanks. We are on the same page believing ideas should flow in multiple directions between countries.

But, if I may tie this back to Doonbeg, it is interesting how a significant marketing budget can bring a place like Doonbeg to everyone's attention, but something like Arthur Spring's Castleisland never will. I tell everyone that you don't go to Castleisland to find "the best site in the world" or even particularly good architecture. However, the project as a whole is very impressive, one I'm guessing might appeal to many American golfers: fairly good, affordable private golf without the crowded environment many Americans experience at decent munis.

[Bill Gayne]

Tim, although located in the same geographic region, I think from a business perspective they are playing in two very different niches of the of the market. I've never been to Castle Island but it sounds like their niche is the traditional Irish club. With four hundred members and no debt they have found a business model that works. Doonbeg is essentially trying to create a new niche with U.S. management characteristics and customer service expectations provided by Kiawah and Landmark in Ireland. I think that they too have found a successful business model. I reallythink that both niches should be able to coexist not at the expense of the other.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Moth,
Yes, it was a crazy economy and yes, the new developer liked Fazio better then he liked Norman. But I have seen one of these U.S. Norman courses, and they represent nothing close from what I can see in images of what Bob Harrison has done down under.

Mirabel or whatever they were calling it back Before Fazio (BF--Before Fazio AF--After Fazio: a term that all of us should really start to use because he is changing or has a hand in changing just way too may courses nowadays) I have heard nothing but the positive, and nothing but the negative of what was once there by Norman. Yet, I remain a Norman fan simply because I think he has the best of intentions when coming up with some of this stuff to make a difference in modern times. He just needs to eliminate the media machine that is behind him and also get someone in the office in Florida that knows what they are doing.

PGA West--Norman is a prime example of this.

[Tim_Weiman]

BillG:

Castleisland and Doonbeg are obviously quite different business models. I happen to think golf in America would be better if it could replicate the Castleisland model. Further, I'm skeptical whether the Doonbeg model is best long term for golf in Ireland.

What made Irish golf so appealing years ago was how different it was. It was appealing in part because of the courses themselves but even more so because it had its own character. Ireland didn't need "US management characteristics"; it had something better. Something much better.

In his book "Links Golf", Australian writer Paul Daley warns about the dangers of "cross polonization" when it comes to golf architecture. I believe the same applies to golf projects as a whole. The entire point of traveling the golf world is to find something different wherever you go. Golf related travel loses its appeal if the industry goes in the direction of making the experience overseas similiar to what one finds in the States.

In general, I hope the Irish, Scottish, English and Australians will resist following the American pattern. American travelers will gradually lose a great deal if they don't have the wisdom to do so.

All that said, you might take comfort knowing that Dee O'Sullivan, a friend from Ballybunion, once took your side me:

"Tim, Americans expect certain things......you just have to understand that", Dee told me.

[Bill Gayne]

Tim, you're comment at the end by Dee is so true. I was on the first tee at Ballybunion at couple of years ago being introduced to my playing partners. I introduced myself to a gentleman from San Francisco and his response back to me was that he was glad to hear my clearly American accent. He wanted to go to Ireland and play with Americans only. Anyway, it's his loss.

As far as what's best in the long run and who survives, that is left largely to the marketplace to determine.

[Tim_Weiman]

BillG:

Yes, the marketplace will determine things. As for your man from San Francisco, it sounds like he would be a better fit for Pebble Beach.

I thought folks from San Francisco were more worldly. Isn't SF considered America's most "European" city?

Anyway, he can play Ballybunion with Americans pretty much anytime.....or I should say anytime in the morning. At Old Head and Doonbeg it is probably more of an all day thing.

[Forrest Richardson]

I believe America has taken plenty from the British Isles and Ireland...namely, the game itself!

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

My good man -- there's no doubt that PGA / West by the Shark turned out to be a big negative. Many people -- myself included don't disagree. Ditto -- what happened with Mirabel -- in fact, TF -- the favorite whipping boy (besides Rees) did quite well with the finished product there. Let me mention a few other notable courses by the Shark.

Try Wente Vineyards in Livermore in your own state as one example. I don't claim it's great but it's better than many courses in the wine country area of California.

I played Greg's new layout at Red Sky Ranch this summer in Wolcott, CO and it's down quite well. There are some maturing issues regarding turf, however, the combination of holes and the uniquely designed chipping areas makes for good golf -- even with the elevation effect.

Doonbeg is another step up for the Shark. Yes, they will tweak the course, but if handled properly the qualities of the course will only be enhanced. Given the high stature of Irish golf it will clearly take some time for people to assess if Doonbeg belongs in such elite company -- I believe it does.

What's remarkable is that the Shark is slowly making a name in the design business -- given the nature of the competition from Arnold, Jack and Gary -- I see him being a main force for as long as his passion for the game remains and as long as his designs show clear qualities beyond the tried and true "happy meal" designs you see far too often. We shall see ...

[bakerg]

This was just posted on their website:

Doonbeg Closed for Enhancements  


As part of our long-range course enhancement program, Doonbeg Golf Club will be closing from October 31, 2003, until March 8, 2004. Much of the work will focus on easing player traffic.

In addition to improving course conditions, we will break ground for The Lodge at Doonbeg Golf Club this winter. We look forward to welcoming you back in the spring.

 

[grandwazo]

This info comes from the Doonbeg October newsletter.....

Doonbeg Closed for Enhancements  


As part of our long-range course enhancement program, Doonbeg Golf Club will be closing from October 31, 2003, until March 8, 2004. Much of the work will focus on easing player traffic.

In addition to improving course conditions, we will break ground for The Lodge at Doonbeg Golf Club this winter. We look forward to welcoming you back in the spring.
 

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