Doonbeg

[Matt_Ward]

I had the pleasure in playing Doonbeg during my Ireland tour of courses and although I can't post a total detailed response now I can say the following: Doonbeg is a well done layout and Greg Norman deserves credit for bringing forward a design that has the real possibility in being lumped with the other elite Irish layouts. That doesn't mean there aren't issues with the course (I will outline a few later) but on the whole Doonbeg does provide high octane golf that keeps you interested.

I do have issues with the routing because the walk from the 17th green to the 18th green is a bit forced and unnatural. It makes you wonder if the original plans could not have been altered to provide for a more smoother march on the course.

On the plus side -- let me also state that two of the three short par-3's -- the 9th at 134 yards and the 14th at 111 yards are two of the finest short holes I have played. They both hug the coast like a child grabbing a parent's arm and they both invite the real possibility for a high score if shot execution is not carried out properly. Yes a two is posible but so is a triple or even worse.

The 9th will be extended a slight amount of yardage and I believe play around 150 yards. The shot is certainly already demanding from the present length of 134 yards and whent he pin is placed in the narrow front section (a reverse 'L' design) you have to have total control of your nerves and the ball flight. I'd much rather play to a rear position where the green becomes a bit more wider.

The 14th is simply grand stuff. You play from an elevated tee to a slender green that is perched above the rocky cliffs. There is a major tendency to pull your approach because the slightest push is certain death -- mssing left is also no bargain!

Given the fact that the length of the hole is what it is the result is more than fair. When the pin is placed in the rear position it takes a very bold and determined effort to get back there -- particularly when the wind is blowing strong in your face.

Doonbeg has a number of other qualities and I'm sure those who have played it will weigh in with their comments as I will later.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt,

I agree with most of your preliminary report. But the layout, specifically, was a much lower rating in my kind. When you say "layout" do you mean the whole, or the routing?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, I have not been there yet so please respect the 2nd hand aspect of these comments. I had lunch yesterday in Houston with some friends who just came back from there a week ago. They are the types that know and see good courses, yet might give Old Head a better shake than Potmarnoch because of the views. They noted the superb natural beauty of the land, yet felt the routing was without rhyme or reason and several of the holes were just poor poor. They were told that 3 to 5 holes were going to be redone from scratch. the general consensus was no reason to go back there again, period. This is much more the story i am getting time and time again. This does not make sense for there is no reason with the budget Norman had to take a very good piece of land and built a average to poor course and then try to hype to death.

[Matt_Ward]

T.B.:

The people you spoke to are correct about some changes being contemplated for the course but the type of changes that were outlined to me are not bad ones -- they will likely strengthen areas that are need of it.

Take the 10th hole -- a superb par-5 that has a wall that cuts in diagonally. The green was extended to allow for shots that use the natural terrain and roll into the putting surface. Originally, the green wasn't as deep and the club decided to extend it in order to be a bit more fair given what can happen if you miss long. That's a smart play in my mind.

I'm leaving Wales right now and will post more when I return to the States. The issue is that people have a hard time recognizing that Doonbeg contains a number of superb holes -- and I fully realize -- as the ownership does -- that tweaking and altering a few other holes isn't so much a weakness but a long term improvement.

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

Matt-
I think you are dead on with your initial post of Doonbeg (although the walk from 17 green to 18 tee didn't bother me as much...but I do understand).  That 14th might be as good as #7 at Pebble and at least as challenging.  I was fortunate to play it on a fairly calm day but I could see HUGE #'s if it was blowing pretty good there.  

I think Norman deserves great credit for his job there.  I need to play it again to fully appreciate it I think.  Your eyes can really wonder at some of the views and terrain there.  

Looking forward to your upcoming posts with additional commentary.

[Joel_Stewart]

I have not played it but Doonbeg has to rate as one of the more interesting layouts in the last several years.  People either love it or hate it.

The softing up approch is interesting since he has worked on changing The Medalist so much over the last 10 years that the course is barely a sniff of what it used to be.  Hopefully they don't have the same problem at Doonbeg.

Ran:  Any interest in doing a feature interview with Norman?

[Tim_Weiman]

My impression based on seeing Doonbeg prior to construction and during three subsequent visits is that the project team struggled from the very beginning.

First, Norman went overboard with his hype about the land at Doonbeg prior to construction. Knowledgeable observers in Ireland knew it was a good but not great piece of land.

In a sense, the marketing hype cheapened the course, at least for me. Sean Walsh was justified nominating Inch as the best site in the world to build a golf course; Norman had no business making the same claim for Doonbeg. It's not in the same universe as Inch or even Castlegregory, I suspect.

This was especially true given the environmental restrictions everyone knew would be enforced from the very beginning. In short, you had to move some dirt - actually sand - to get 18 holes, and the permitting restrictions wouldn't going to allow all you might like done.

Then, too, I think the project team had the wrong vision. With the skills of Norman in mind, they set out to challenge the very best players. But, they neglected the real people who would play the course - the mid handicappers.

Along the way the project team did correct some of their early mistakes, though with all the changes I'm still not sure they got the green complex and bunker scheme on #9 right.

For comparison's sake, one only needs to look up the road. Lahinch can challenge the low handicapper but it has the charm to entice the mid handicapper to return again and again. Doonbeg today can't make the same claim.

[kmak]

I played Doonbeg last week at the beginning of my first trip to Ireland, and was very happy that it was the first course I played; otherwise I would have been severely disappointed (particularly given the price).

It certainly had a few spectacular holes, in particular the two short par threes mentioned above.  However, it had several green complexes that were borderline ridiculous, including the hole with the bunker in the center of the green (possibly appropriate for a short par four, but not one where a long iron approach is required).  Additionally, I found the fairways to be very inconsistent in terms of firmness - some would allow run-up approaches, some were too soft and stopped the ball immediately - and I couldn't tell what it was going to do before I hit the ball.

I also understand that major revisions are in planning, I believe awaiting the expiration of Greg Norman's contract....

[Tim_Weiman]

Kevin:

While in town, did you hear the same Fazio rumors?

[kmak]

Kevin:

While in town, did you hear the same Fazio rumors?

Tim,

I remember hearing Fazio rumors somewhere on the trip, possibly at Waterville?  It's all starting to blur now....

Kevin

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

It's amazing how everything blurs on those Ireland trips isn't it?

[kmak]

It's amazing how everything blurs on those Ireland trips isn't it?

It was like the movie Groundhog Day - get up, eat a lousy continental breakfast with the same seven guys, get on a bus for an hour, head straight to the first tee, play a fabulous golf course through a bunch of sand dunes in a howling wind, eat lunch, play it again, get back on the bus, eat a quick dinner, go to bed, wake up to the same Sonny and Cher song...

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

You left out the part about drinking until 2 am enough Irish whiskey and Guinness to choke a donkey.  Otherwise you were on the same trip I was.

[tonyt]

Some prior comment on another thread cited a dangerous routing. Is this the case?

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

There is one place you need to check a neighboring tee box before proceeding on but I wouldn't say it is anyway near as dangerous as something like the Lahinch crossovers.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Tim's comment about the project team struggling makes it seem that "struggling" is always bad. Not necessarily so. Struggles have been had at many fine courses, including many we all love. A great design team endures struggles. Norman's did not, at least according to Tim.

And, I disagree with Tim in bashing Doonbeg. I feel it a very unique course with bits which some will hate. Fine. Welcome to great golf. The same qualities many here hate about the establishment have not been met at Doonbeg...so why not embrace the place and its quirks?

I disagree with the notions that there is anything dangerous in the routing. The town access to the beach is the public's problem. The crossing of the 1st to play No. 18 is odd, but I did not find out the history of this. Seems it was a result of the endangered snail preserve. That's my guess.

[grandwazo]

Fazio's work at Waterville is complete and the best part of the job is that you would never know he was there.  I heard some complaints about the choice of grass, but I enjoyed the course immensely.

As for Doonbeg, in my foursome I was the only one who loved it but then I was the only one to shoot 80 in the morning and 81 in the afternoon with doubles on 14 both rounds (tee shots ending up on the 5th hole both times.  Having looked into membership in the club, I've been told that Norman is completely reworking 5 holes this winter and the course will be closed completely to get it done.  The holes my friends complained the most about I happened to play well, starting with the ridiculously small green on 3 and the par 5 13th, requiring a blind iron off the tee that allows a shot at the elevated green.  I think my associates just couldn't be patient enough to hit iron off the tees that required it.  

I also believe that the landscape is great, both on the water and the inland facing holes.   Given time, and patience, Doonbeg may end up as one of the best in Ireland.

[Forrest Richardson]

I failed to mention that my playing partner at Doonbeg was a 20-handicap. He shot about 95 and was pleased and fulfilled. yes, the weather was grand, but a decent round is played under these conditions.

Doonbeg is a fine site and made even more interesting by the nasty snail that eeeks along aside its fairways. Good for him — the snail changed the routing and made for abnormal golf. Similar to a wall I once read about...or some sheds...or...

[Matt_Ward]

Ben Hogan NJ:

A couple quick comments on the first six holes -- with more to follow:

#1 (567 yards) par-5
Really liked the hole -- gives you an opportunity to get out of the gate and possibly make a birdie. If you over cook the tee shot left then a high score awaits. The green is also well served by having a bunker lurk a few yards in front of the green to keep the player honest if he hits a low runner towards the target.

#2 (406 yards) par-4
Good medium range par-4. The green is the key as it it plays as an upside down "C". If the pin is placed at the top portion of the green the approach really become interesting.

#3 (338 yards) par-4
I really enjoyed the hole. There is a property fence that pushes in from the right and the longer you go the possibility for a push to the OB marker increases -- pull it left and there are two bunkers on that side. The narrow green is what makes the hole. If there is any wind blowing the approach must be hit with supreme precision.

#4 (538 yards) par-5
Good gambling par-5 as you must decide at the tee whether to challenge the bunkers and rough that stand in the center and right portions of the fairway. To clear the bunker from the tips is 282 yards! The green is also nicely contoured and if you land in the wrong section the possibility of a three-wack increases.

#5 (382 yards) par-4
The first hole I really did not like. The fairway is deliberately cut-off at about 250 yards and you really don't have any other option but to play short and to the left. There is also a very severe hill area to the right that needs to be toned down a bit. I really liked the green complex and I believe there may be some changes carried out here. When you head back to the ocean the view are quite stimulating.

#6 (373 yards) par-4
Wonderful risk'n reward type hole. Plays along the ocean and if you should decide to bust it with the driver it's possible you can finish near the green. Just don't miss!!!! The green is well protected and sits back nicely.

To Doonbeg's credit the first six holes allow the golfer to score when play merits it.

[Matt_Ward]

The second six holes ---

7th hole (229 yards) Par-3
Very demanding long par-3 with multiple tee locations for a wide variety of distances and playing angles. The gren is well protected up front by a few bunkers and if the pin is placed in the front half the approach must be played well to get anywhere close.

8th hole (595 yards) par-5
I didn't really care for the hole simply because the tee shot is not really challenged. You simply grip'n rip and go from there. The long hitters can get home in two provided the tee shot finds the left side of the fairway. Even then you have a semi-blind shot to a green that is well  protected in the front and is contoured to prevent any cheap birdies.

9th hole (134 yards) par-3
Grand hole! The green is an upside-down "L" and whent he pin is placed in the narrow front section it can be a terrifying prospect when the wind is howling as it was when I played. With the pin in the rear the green does open up considerably but you stil have to be very careful with your club selection. This is one of the holes that I believe will be lengthened just a bit to somewhere around 150-155 yards.

10th hole (585 yards) par-5
One of the very best par-5's I played while in Ireland and Northern Ireland. The hole is patterned somewhat after the 12th at Lahinch. It does not play nearly as much downhill but the concept is fairly similar. There is an OB wall that cuts in from the left and th eplayer is tempted to play near it with the tee shot to cut some yardage off of the hole. Be wise and avoid that because if you should play too close to the wall then you can be seriously challenged. The second shot is a grand one as you must decide how aggressive you wish to be. There are several bunkers in the center of the fairway and if you should venture with a shot to the green it must draw correctly to avoid them and not toomuch to reach the high grass that patrols the left side. The green was extended to provide a bit more room for those coming in from long range. A grand hole because so much is possible.

11th hole (142 yards) Par-3
Likely, the most underrated hole at Doonbeg. The green sits above the fairway and there is a possibility that any shot short can run back off the green. There is also a very deep bunker on the right that seems to grab any indifferent shot that floats too far right. When played into the prevailing wind the hole is not easy play from the tee.

12th hole (466 yards) par-4
Solid long par-4 that gets a bad wrap because of a bunker that is placed in the center of the green (ala Riviera's 6th hole). The tee shot is challenged depending upon th eline you choose from the tee. Those going down the right side will have a slightly shorter and better shot into the green. The bunker within the green is demanding but I didn't feel it was out of place or somehow a misjudgement on the architect's part.

[cary lichtenstein]

I don't get it. Norman keeps on building courses with major mistakes and he has to come back and remodel and remodel?You guys are cutting him too much slack here.

The site is too small for an 18 hole golf course. He needed to run some holes into the flater farm land above the course in order to make 10/12 wonderful holes.

If it had to be all dunes and no farm land, then bull dosers could have been used to create some great dunes. Look what Fazio did in Las Vegas with Shadow Creek.

[ClarkW]

Played Doonbeg last summer shortly after its "official" opening. Beautiful sunny day with little wind which made it very playable. As mentioned earlier, if the wind is up then look for scores to balloon especially on some of the quirkier holes (e.g. 9 and 14). Course was definitely built with brawn to challenge the better golfers. Your mid to high handicappers will struggle here.

I was also struck by the mishmash of bunker styles used throughout the course. A number of bearded bunkerfaces (ala Royal County Down), stacked sod bunkerfaces (ala Road Hole bunker) and so on. All very challenging and attractive but almost seemingly random depending on the hole. Also, a couple of absolutely jaw-dropping awesome greens built in amphitheaters of dunes.

Bottom line: After playing a course like Lahinch with its crossovers and quirky holes, you tend to laugh and say, "Great fun. This was built umpteen years ago and has survived this long, why change it now? But if anybody tried to duplicate this type of quirk today, watch out..."  

Well, watch out is right. I feel that Doonbeg has gone ahead and done exactly this. Random crossovers, quirky holes, confusing routing (at times). Now my question is: was this a result of Norman purposefully designing Doonbeg this way or having his hand forced by the snail discovery (and resulting changes in routing).

[cary lichtenstein]

Played Doonbeg last summer shortly after its "official" opening. Beautiful sunny day with little wind which made it very playable. As mentioned earlier, if the wind is up then look for scores to balloon especially on some of the quirkier holes (e.g. 9 and 14). Course was definitely built with brawn to challenge the better golfers. Your mid to high handicappers will struggle here.

I was also struck by the mishmash of bunker styles used throughout the course. A number of bearded bunkerfaces (ala Royal County Down), stacked sod bunkerfaces (ala Road Hole bunker) and so on. All very challenging and attractive but almost seemingly random depending on the hole. Also, a couple of absolutely jaw-dropping awesome greens built in amphitheaters of dunes.

Bottom line: After playing a course like Lahinch with its crossovers and quirky holes, you tend to laugh and say, "Great fun. This was built umpteen years ago and has survived this long, why change it now? But if anybody tried to duplicate this type of quirk today, watch out..."  

Well, watch out is right. I feel that Doonbeg has gone ahead and done exactly this. Random crossovers, quirky holes, confusing routing (at times). Now my question is: was this a result of Norman purposefully designing Doonbeg this way or having his hand forced by the snail discovery (and resulting changes in routing).

[cary lichtenstein]

"Now my question is did Norman design it this way on purpose or did the snail intervene???

Let's lay the blame on the snail!!!!!!!!!!

A great architect when challenged will come up with solutions that are not obvious to others. When we had trouble with a design or coloration in our studio, we knew to give it to our star, and presto, he either solved the problem or pointed out why it couldn't be solved.

I say blame it on the scale and continue to pay Norman ridiculus fees to build courses that fail to live up to their budget and pr.

[Forrest Richardson]

quasssi,

I have no reason to defend Norman Designs on this other than the fact that Doonbeg is a very interesting and worthwhile design. Your comments are misguided and harsh. The site is not too small, nor would the flat land you cite have necessarily been a good decision had it been embraced. The course is frought with some oddities, but so are many fine layouts, including many celebrated and beloved courses. I find your opinions snotty. Certainly not professional.

As to the other comment here about the various bunker styles. Great. If we are to consider this "bad" then let's immediately remove all accolades from Oakmont as at that fine and wonderful venue we have not any two bunkers which look, act, smell or taste the same.