Holes with significant vertical rise - examples and how much is too much?

[Sean_A]

Whatever the vertical (extremely steep!) climb at Painswick's 1st is (I guess 50 feet), how would a range finder help with the blindness?  This climb is one of the worst I know of...but it is a terrible hole so throw it out.  The 5th too is pretty serious, but nothing like the 1st.  Mind you, tons of people cannot make that carry so it is a very dubious hole as its do or die with all the horrible rough about.


Reddish Vale's 18th is severe, but managable.  I think the bigger issues are that its the last hole and the narrow drive...not a hole I admire. 


Kington's 1st isn't in the same class in terms of climbing as Painswick's 1st or RV's 18th.  I think its about the limit for climbing though and I guess its maybe 35 feet...would be interesting to know for sure.


Another severe climb is Prestbury's 9th....maybe 35 feet for the approach and the hole still works okay, but far from ideal because its hard to bounce one up the hill which isn't the case at Kington. 


100 feet is massive and not something I ever want to experience.  Even downhill it would likely be a stupid hole. 


Ciao

[Joe Schackman]

In my area two Donald Ross courses come to mind:

4th hole at Plainfield CC
2nd hole at Echo Lake

Not sure either has as severe an elevation change as the other ones listed but those are what I think of.

[John Sabino]

I don't know what the vertical rise is on the finishing hole at Yale, I suspect it's 100 feet or more, although it's a tee shot so a range finder wouldn't be helpful. Is it too much? Nope, it's a spectacular hole. Can't imagine a shot to the green that severe, however.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think I mentioned this on here a few months ago, but at Golf Realp in Switzerland, high in the Alps near the St Gotthard Pass, the tee markers record the elevation change on the holes as well as the distance.


It's a very simple nine hole course, built by the locals for (I presume) basically no money, with no earthmoving except to build a few tees and the universally tiny greens.


The par four third is 284m long and climbs, iirc, 45 metres from tee to green. That's 148 feet. I don't recall how big the descent is on the 276m fourth, but the tee is well above the third green and the green well below the third tee. Say 55m (180 feet). It is a tough walk!


Here's a short film about the course, featuring Bernhard Russi, the Swiss Olympic skier, who was one of the guys behind its creation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6JZElhZyqU


I know Jon Wiggett has seen Realp. Jon, am I not telling the God's honest truth?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Go extreme on them...;-)


Here's a hole  - a par 3...!.. - with a 1,400' vertical drop only accessible via helicopter:


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/interactive-tour-of-the-worlds-longest-par-3-at-legend-golf-resort




Or, look at then 16th at Royal Dornoch. Par 4, 400 yards straight up hill at least 50' (guess).

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are a few links holes I can think of: Gullane, the 2nd at Rosses Point or the second half of the 17th on the same course.


Below is a photo of the 6th hole on the new / Kilmore nine at Carne. It is a severe climb, referred to as a ski-slope fairway by TD in the Confidential Guide. If you reach the top of the first ridge with your tee-shot, you will be able to see the flagstick but if not, you are left with a very blind approach shot. It was a necessary part of the routing to get back over that dune system. I think in the end we made a good hole out of it with some spectacular views and a lovely green site.


It is a climb of 16m (50 feet) from bottom to top.

[JJShanley]

Ally: What about 4 and 15 at Strandhill?  You likely only have a short iron for the approach, but I recall steep enough inclines on each.

[Tom_Doak]

Whatever the vertical (extremely steep!) climb at Painswick's 1st is (I guess 50 feet), how would a range finder help with the blindness?  This climb is one of the worst I know of...but it is a terrible hole so throw it out. 

Sean:


Painswick is a great example.  I would have guessed it at 75 feet, based on how tired my legs were at the top, but if it was really that high most people's drives would crash into the hill before they reached their apex!  So, in hindsight, I guess you are probably right at about 50 feet, or maybe 60.  That's a ton for one golf shot.

[MCirba]

Joe Bausch may correct my exact estimation but the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek had a tee shot that called for an ascent of approximately 80 feet to reach level fairway on a 420 yard par four.   

We've tried to play it but the 40 foot trees that have grown up in the area since it was re-routed in the 1950s routinely knock down our tee shots.   

Maybe someday.   

Mike, that sounds totally crazy, do you have a photo of that? Did you and Joe like the hole, with the exception of the darn trees that are always getting in the way?

David,

When we first showed it to Jim Wagner he compared it to 18 at Riviera, albeit on steroids.   

Here's the original 1915 drawing of the 6th hole running southwest to northeast on topo as envisioned by the design team of Wilson/Smith/Crump/Klauder/Meehan.  It's difficult to see, but on this drawing the tee starts north of the creek and measures 390.   The tee was actually built south of the creek as you'll see in the pics to follow;




Here's what it looks like today as visible in this winter-time shot.   Most of the tree have grown since the 1970s because open fairway is still visible in aerials from that period.   This photo is a bit more daunting than it would be in reality because on the top of the hill, horizon-line, a tee was built in the 1950s to support today's short par four 16th hole playing to the original 6th green.   My estimation is that the tee is built up in the back about 6-8 feet so the climb would be a bit less by that amount if restored.



In the 1930s, I believe, Joe Dey did a series of articles on the best holes in the Philly region and selected the 6th at Cobb's Creek among them.   Joe Bausch unearthed this series of articles a few years back.

[Benjamin Litman]

Here are pictures of two of my favorites, Yale's 10th and 18th (the latter already mentioned by John above). Both work quite well, in my opinion, albeit in different ways. The 10th has its steep uphill from fairway to green (although you can minimize the incline, but maximize the distance, if you play short off the tee), while the 18th has its steep uphill from fairway to more fairway, before a sharp drop to the green. For the world's best example of the latter use of an incline--which, to me, has the added benefit of imbuing the hole's unfolding with a sense of discovery--see the 5th at New South Wales.


Hole 10 ("Carries"): Par 4, 396 Yards













Hole 18 ("Home"): Par 5, 621 Yards

[Mark Bourgeois]

Nice pics Benjamin.

John S -- nothing at Yale approaches 100' elevation change. Doubt there are any uphills more than 50' in fact. Probably downhill, too, although my guess is 11 tee to green and 13 tee to green are the biggest elevation changes tee to green. (Some holes with elevated greens, like 10 and 12, also have elevated tees.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Joe Bausch may correct my exact estimation but the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek had a tee shot that called for an ascent of approximately 80 feet to reach level fairway on a 420 yard par four.   

We've tried to play it but the 40 foot trees that have grown up in the area since it was re-routed in the 1950s routinely knock down our tee shots.   

how about 17 at Ledgerock??  does Prof Joe have a pic?

Maybe someday.   

[Joe Bausch]

how about 17 at Ledgerock??  does Prof Joe have a pic?

Here is an approach shot view of the 17th at LedgeRock, which I'm guessing could be a 30' climb or more:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/LedgeRock/pages/page_84.html

[Phil McDade]

Langford's West Bend CC has a couple of them -- the 1st hole which rises dramatically to a volcano-like green, and the steeply uphill par 4 7th.


Anyone know the vertical climb of the ledge hole at Maxwell's Dornick Hills? That seems to be a pretty good one.


The sharpest I've played is the par 3 3rd Crow's Nest at the 12-hole Shiskine course in Scotland.

[David Davis]

Thanks for the pics, very cool! What's really funny, as was the case yesterday and still today is that one persons perception of 30 meters (100 ft) doesn't match another or the reality for that matter.


I always say try to imagine a 10 story building (10 ft per story). That's 100ft, then imagine you run into that on a golf course and have to hit over or on top of it. As Tom and others have mentioned this may happen but it's so darn rare.


Benjamin's nice pics of Yale are a perfect example, John's been pretty much all over the place and certainly no offense to him but has a tough time estimating 100ft vertical incline. He's not the only one off by more than 50%. Even those shots at Yale are much more than is necessary to demonstrate the effect of slope on club choice but realistically if they are 30-50ft vertical climbs that would be huge. That's also why all but the best players tend to leave these types of shots well short.


I've yet to hear someone say, "darn uphill shots, I always hit long on them."


I can think of another kind of funny hole in the Belgian Ardennes. It's at Golf L'Empereur if anyone has ever seen it. I can't find a photo of the hole but I can find a photo of the tee shot of the next hole which gives you an idea of the vertical incline from fairway straight up the hill to the green. Really a bazaar hole and I would say it's very quirky but I wouldn't necessarily say it works.






Disclaimer (for the record, the golfer in the photo is not the author, he is much younger and better looking    )

[David Davis]

There are a few links holes I can think of: Gullane, the 2nd at Rosses Point or the second half of the 17th on the same course.


Below is a photo of the 6th hole on the new / Kilmore nine at Carne. It is a severe climb, referred to as a ski-slope fairway by TD in the Confidential Guide. If you reach the top of the first ridge with your tee-shot, you will be able to see the flagstick but if not, you are left with a very blind approach shot. It was a necessary part of the routing to get back over that dune system. I think in the end we made a good hole out of it with some spectacular views and a lovely green site.


It is a climb of 16m (50 feet) from bottom to top.

Ally, great shot, I would guessed that one at at least a mile high!!! ha ha, but to say it's 50 ft is certainly a shocker.

[David Davis]

Joe Bausch may correct my exact estimation but the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek had a tee shot that called for an ascent of approximately 80 feet to reach level fairway on a 420 yard par four.   

We've tried to play it but the 40 foot trees that have grown up in the area since it was re-routed in the 1950s routinely knock down our tee shots.   

Maybe someday.   

Mike, that sounds totally crazy, do you have a photo of that? Did you and Joe like the hole, with the exception of the darn trees that are always getting in the way?

David,

When we first showed it to Jim Wagner he compared it to 18 at Riviera, albeit on steroids.   

Here's the original 1915 drawing of the 6th hole running southwest to northeast on topo as envisioned by the design team of Wilson/Smith/Crump/Klauder/Meehan.  It's difficult to see, but on this drawing the tee starts north of the creek and measures 390.   The tee was actually built south of the creek as you'll see in the pics to follow;




Here's what it looks like today as visible in this winter-time shot.   Most of the tree have grown since the 1970s because open fairway is still visible in aerials from that period.   This photo is a bit more daunting than it would be in reality because on the top of the hill, horizon-line, a tee was built in the 1950s to support today's short par four 16th hole playing to the original 6th green.   My estimation is that the tee is built up in the back about 6-8 feet so the climb would be a bit less by that amount if restored.



In the 1930s, I believe, Joe Dey did a series of articles on the best holes in the Philly region and selected the 6th at Cobb's Creek among them.   Joe Bausch unearthed this series of articles a few years back.

Mike that indeed looks menacing and it's hard to tell from the photo but the more I look at it it seems a bit like a similar height to #3 at Old Mac. Of course I could be way off given I'm just looking at a picture.

[JLahrman]

For the bay area boys...Tilden Park.

#1 is a beastie 410 yard par 4 that goes straight up the hill, all the way.  I never came close to reaching it in two.  Then #3 is 380 or so IIRC, and goes back down the hill where its driver, and wedge to the green.

#1 at Tilden is certainly quite uphill. I got around the green in two but it's certainly much longer than the card. I looked up the altitude by hovering in Google Earth. I got the tee at 1086 feet and the green at 1183 feet, which is a 97 foot rise.

#3 tees at 1100 feet and descends to 935 feet - a 165 foot drop!

Tilden is a tricky little course.

I also thought about my childhood home course of Sharon Woods outside Cincinnati.

#8 is about 220 yards from the back tee, and drops from 766 to 688 feet for a 78 foot drop on a par 3.

#9 is a par-5 that comes back up the hill, rising from 698 feet to 821 feet - a 123-foot rise.

I can't say I'm crazy about #1 at Tilden but I don't know that it's because of the climb. I never thought #9 at Sharon Woods was a bad hole. I actually like it. Apparently they had to reconfigure the course many years ago because lots of golfers would quit after 9 holes because they were tired after climbing that hill on hot summer days. So for a long time (including when I first started playing the course) it was #18. But about 20 years ago they switched the course back to its original configuration because most players take carts now.

[Greg Tallman]

18th hole at Tierra del Sol in Aruba always seemed quite steep as did the final hole on the old St George's course in Bermuda.

[Pete_Pittock]

I was watching a golf tournament recently that had ShotTrack or the equivalent and they were showing the apex measurements and I can't remember if I saw any above 105'.

If the ad exec wants a +100' they'd need to reverse engineer a drop-shot hole or simulate hitting a ball onto the roof of a 10 story building from street level.

There was a course at the top of Neah-Kah-Nie Mtn in OR I used to  play as a kid. The clubhouse is still there on US 101 just as you start the descent down to Manzanita. The first e9ght holes tacked back and forth towards the ocean. The 9th was about 270 yds long, all steeply uphill. Unreachable and I'd say there was a100+ elevation change.

[Tim Gavrich]

In Connecticut, the ~350-yard 10th hole at the course I learned the game on - Hop Meadow CC - rises 70 feet from the tee up to the green (the rise begins about 150 yards out from the back tee, so it's compressed into about 200 yards) AND twists pretty significantly to the left, with a green that itself probably falls 3 or 4 feet from back to front. I think Cornish did a wonderful job of pitching the fairway in such a way that it's about as steeply uphill as a fairway can be without the ball rolling backwards. The climb is close to being too onerous, but I don't think it crosses the line. Instead it's a short or mid iron from a more awkward stance than the player is accustomed to - I like it.


The property on which the course sits is basically two levels, and Geoffrey Cornish used three of the four par threes, plus hole 10, as the connectors. The par-3 third is about 155 yards and rises about 25 feet up a more mellow part of the shelf, while the par-3 9th and 16th drop about 75 and 85 feet, respectively.


Elsewhere in the area, the NLE Canton (CT) Golf Course had a par four where the approach shot was up about a 50-foot hill. Country Club of Waterbury's 10th rises 50 feet the last 140 yards. The green's a bit of a punchbowl, so if you come up short, you have no one but yourself to blame while you watch your ball roll about 40 yards back down the fairway.


#2 at Fairview Farm Golf Course in Harwinton, CT, rises 90 feet in about 390 yards.

[Garland Bayley]

I can think of Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, Dismal River (N), and Painswick as courses with significant rise.
In Oregon, Alderwood (Tillamook) and the Oregon Club (2,9,18).

Hey Pete,


How about the back nine at Milton-Freewater? But, then he asked about holes people thought were reasonable.

[archie_struthers]

 


For the life of me I can't remember the course but it is either in Charlotte or near Chapel Hill / Durham . I played it over twenty years ago and I'm pretty foggy  about where.  However , the second shot on a short par four had at least a 50-60 foot rise . 


I do remember it was a Rees Jones redo.   Dogleg left about 380 tops .   Maybe some tar-heel   can help me .   Very awkward second. . Unless you had some power it was pretty hard to hit it high enough to get to green .

[Tom_Doak]

Joe Bausch may correct my exact estimation but the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek had a tee shot that called for an ascent of approximately 80 feet to reach level fairway on a 420 yard par four.   

When we first showed it to Jim Wagner he compared it to 18 at Riviera, albeit on steroids.   

[/size]
[/size]Mike:[size=78%]

[/size]You are right that the topo map shows the Cobbs Creek hole as an 80-foot climb.  FYI, the tee shot at Riviera is 40 feet, though it's more of a steep cliff that you have to get up and over.  We did something similar to that on the 17th at Dismal River but ours is a little lower.[size=78%]

[/size]It could be that the 80-foot climb at Cobbs was one reason the hole fell out of use![size=78%]

[Jonathan Mallard]

Tom,


What is the elevation change for second shot on the 7th at Old MacDonald? Seems like a lot, but the more I think about it being right on the ocean, I'm getting 40' seems reasonable.


The second shot to 17 at Crystal Downs from the bottom of the fairway is a big rise. And while we're on that course, although it's not a rise of the earth, how tall is the tree on 5 to hit the tee ball over?