Holes with significant vertical rise - examples and how much is too much?

[David Davis]

Having a debate this evening with a creative agency putting together a pitch for a range finder. The video work was spot on and realistic yet the client suggests needing a vertical rise of 30 meters (about 99 ft, call it 100 even).


For the life of me I could think of ever having played such a hole so had a good laugh about this. Which brought me to wonder, if you the treehouse had many examples of holes with large vertical rises, do these work? What's the maximum vertical rise acceptable in order to pull off a decent hole still?


I had these two photos which I recently took:












Now these both seem to work pretty well but I have difficulty trying to determine what the actually vertical rise from tee to green is. The second one is a very steep par 3. Never seen one that steep before. I'd say it's a good 20 meters? The first perhaps the same vertical climb.


Interested to hear and see your examples for this.

[PCCraig]

Do you mean something like this?:

[MCirba]

Joe Bausch may correct my exact estimation but the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek had a tee shot that called for an ascent of approximately 80 feet to reach level fairway on a 420 yard par four.   

We've tried to play it but the 40 foot trees that have grown up in the area since it was re-routed in the 1950s routinely knock down our tee shots.   

Maybe someday.   

[PCCraig]

Or how about this view, the 2nd shot on a ~470 yard par-4.

[David Davis]

Those are quite good, do you guys think you could make a reasonable estimation of the vertical climb and give your opinion as to whether or not it works for you on those holes? thanks

[Clyde Johnson]

Not sure if this is what you mean, but the 2nd hole at Dollar - Clackmannanshire, Scotland. Only 97 yards long, but you are facing a 3/4 storey wall, pretty much right in front of you, with the green on top. You can probably just about pick the flag out.


The ladies tee half way up is the smallest tee I have ever seen. They have a drop zone at the top for those that don't make it (which i'd imagine is most)!!!

[PCCraig]

Those are quite good, do you guys think you could make a reasonable estimation of the vertical climb and give your opinion as to whether or not it works for you on those holes? thanks

The first hole I posted is probably a ~40ft vertical climb from the bottom of the hole (likely approach yardage spot), to the green. The shot is about 100 or 110 yards. It usually plays a full club or two longer. It's a really steep climb and shot. Personally, I think it is fun, interesting, and very challenging. But candidly it probably doesn't "work" because the approach shot is brutally hard for higher handicappers and ladies. A chunked approach shot usually leads to a ball rolling back down the hill and coming to rest at your feet.


The second hole works better. It's probably a 25 or 30 ft hill, but it's very steep. A shot that hits the hill slows down considerably and will never come close to the green. It's a longer approach shot (~175-200 yards), so it is a challenge to get a mid or long iron up fast enough to carry the hill. But it's also easily carried with a 7 iron or more lofted club.

[Tom_Doak]

David:


I know the numbers pretty well from years of studying topo maps.


In general, on the Golden Age courses, architects would keep the climbs to 25 feet per shot most of the time.  That had something to do with seeing the green -- if the green was pitched back to the fairway at 4%, you could see the surface until it was about twenty feet above you on a long iron shot.


There are, of course, exceptions to this rule.  The 18th at Augusta is 70 feet uphill from tee to green; the 8th a bit more than that.  The 8th at Crystal Downs is 70 feet uphill if I recall correctly.  [On par-5's, a simple 3% grade over 550 yards = 50 feet uphill without even noticing.]


The 11th at Pasatiempo is 90 feet uphill ... that's the biggest I know of on any hole that people actually think is a good hole.  [The ravine on the second shot helps it from feeling as uphill as it is.]  I used that knowledge when we were building Stone Eagle:  the 5th hole there is also around 90 feet uphill.


60 feet on an approach shot is a LOT.  I think you're probably overestimating the climb a bit.  Hitting over the top of the hill on the 4th at Royal Melbourne is only 40 or 45 feet.

[David Davis]

Joe Bausch may correct my exact estimation but the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek had a tee shot that called for an ascent of approximately 80 feet to reach level fairway on a 420 yard par four.   

We've tried to play it but the 40 foot trees that have grown up in the area since it was re-routed in the 1950s routinely knock down our tee shots.   

Maybe someday.   

Mike, that sounds totally crazy, do you have a photo of that? Did you and Joe like the hole, with the exception of the darn trees that are always getting in the way?

[Steve Lang]

    from a recent trip to Reddish Vale, #18 The Hill is very sloped and a killer walk up...

[David Davis]

David:


I know the numbers pretty well from years of studying topo maps.


In general, on the Golden Age courses, architects would keep the climbs to 25 feet per shot most of the time.  That had something to do with seeing the green -- if the green was pitched back to the fairway at 4%, you could see the surface until it was about twenty feet above you on a long iron shot.


There are, of course, exceptions to this rule.  The 18th at Augusta is 70 feet uphill from tee to green; the 8th a bit more than that.  The 8th at Crystal Downs is 70 feet uphill if I recall correctly.  [On par-5's, a simple 3% grade over 550 yards = 50 feet uphill without even noticing.]


The 11th at Pasatiempo is 90 feet uphill ... that's the biggest I know of on any hole that people actually think is a good hole.  [The ravine on the second shot helps it from feeling as uphill as it is.]  I used that knowledge when we were building Stone Eagle:  the 5th hole there is also around 90 feet uphill.


60 feet on an approach shot is a LOT.  I think you're probably overestimating the climb a bit.  Hitting over the top of the hill on the 4th at Royal Melbourne is only 40 or 45 feet.

Tom, thanks that's very interesting. I suppose you would of mentioned it but just in case have you ever seen any that were just ridiculous and perhaps with way more vertical climb than say the 90 ft that you thought worked reasonably well even?


In my head crazy places come to mind that you have visited like the Himalayan Golf Club. Though I only mention that because it's in the mountains really, no idea if there are mountainous holes.

[Keith Phillips]

At Montclair Golf Club in New Jersey we have several steeply uphill holes, at least five of which must have 50+ foot of rise.  At nearby Rockaway River there is a dogleg left (#10?) with an approach shot playing straight up what must be an 80+ foot rise.  I'd say having capacity for a 30 meter rise is a must!

[Pete_Pittock]

I can think of Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, Dismal River (N), and Painswick as courses with significant rise.
In Oregon, Alderwood (Tillamook) and the Oregon Club (2,9,18). 

[Kalen Braley]

For the bay area boys...Tilden Park.

#1 is a beastie 410 yard par 4 that goes straight up the hill, all the way.  I never came close to reaching it in two.  Then #3 is 380 or so IIRC, and goes back down the hill where its driver, and wedge to the green.

[Tom_Doak]

I can think of Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, Dismal River (N), and Painswick as courses with significant rise.
In Oregon, Alderwood (Tillamook) and the Oregon Club (2,9,18).

Pete:


The ridge that runs alongside the 18th at Pacific Dunes is only about 50 feet high.  Where you hit over it on #3 at Old Mac, we cut it down about 10-15 feet so it wouldn't be too high to get over.

[Carl Rogers]

Does anyone have a pic of the the 5th hole at Ballyhack?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, thanks that's very interesting. I suppose you would of mentioned it but just in case have you ever seen any that were just ridiculous and perhaps with way more vertical climb than say the 90 ft that you thought worked reasonably well even?

In my head crazy places come to mind that you have visited like the Himalayan Golf Club. Though I only mention that because it's in the mountains really, no idea if there are mountainous holes.

The Himalayan course is about 250 feet down into a canyon, but you walk up a long trail to get back out after the 15th hole.  There are only two shots that are significantly uphill, onto plateaus, and they're maybe 30 or 40 feet.


The 18th at Reddish Vale [from Steve Lang's picture] was the first hole that came to mind when you ask about severe uphills, partly because it's the 18th and it's tough on tired legs.  Capilano has some steeply uphill holes to get back up from the 6th green, but I've never seen a topo map to know exactly how much climb there is on any hole in particular.




I've turned down more several sites in my career because I thought the uphill grades would be too steep for good golf.  One was Whiskey Creek in Maryland, the Ernie Els course -- Lester George had done a design there with a par-5 that went uphill over 100 feet.  The second course at Black Rock in Idaho, now called Rock Creek, was another.  The site that Greg Norman has built a course on for Marcos Clutterbuck [who posts here] was another in that category ... but I played the front nine a year ago and it turned out much better than I would have imagined.


On most of these sites, the routing is built in a series of benches, with climbs from one green up to the next tee, but the holes themselves are pretty flat.  Some of those 1980's courses in Japan have escalators to get up from one level to the next!

[jeffwarne]

Number 1 at Southerndown-down't know how many feet that is but my son may have a better estimate having run all the way back down and then up again to get me a pin sheet in a qualifier (and mine was later found in my pocket.... )

[MClutterbuck]

Tom, thanks that's very interesting. I suppose you would of mentioned it but just in case have you ever seen any that were just ridiculous and perhaps with way more vertical climb than say the 90 ft that you thought worked reasonably well even?

In my head crazy places come to mind that you have visited like the Himalayan Golf Club. Though I only mention that because it's in the mountains really, no idea if there are mountainous holes.

The site that Greg Norman has built a course on for Marcos Clutterbuck [who posts here] was another in that category ... but I played the front nine a year ago and it turned out much better than I would have imagined.

Tom,


The par 5 8th is the only significant uphill hole on the front 9. I believe you liked the hole and it is just under 60 feet vertical.

To be fair, all of the vertical rise is with the second and third shot, and if you happen to miss the narrower left part of the fairway with the second, you are facing 37 feet vertical with a 8 iron - wedge, over bunkers with a bad angle to the green. 

Now, downhill vertical is another matter...

[Matt Bielawa]

I thought the 3rd at Wolf Creek was an example of too much

[MClutterbuck]

I recall a very steep approach on the pr 4 11th at Roaring Fork in Colorado. Many members complained it was too steep. I actually thought it was fun. Google Earths estimate is just under 30 feet for a wedge shot.

[Tyler Kearns]

Capilano has some steeply uphill holes to get back up from the 6th green, but I've never seen a topo map to know exactly how much climb there is on any hole in particular.

Tom,


The elevation changes at Capilano were included in 'Hathstauwk' by Eric Whitehead.  The only glaring error I can see is the height of No. 13 green, I don't recall the hole climbing that much, and the tee is definitely lower than the 14th tee. The listing is as follows (tee-to-green);


No. 1  672' --> 573'
No. 2  561' --> 542'
No. 3  523' --> 554'
No. 4  561' --> 575'
No. 5  575' --> 486'
No. 6  486' --> 384'
No. 7  375' --> 391'
No. 8  386' --> 385'
No. 9  419' --> 464'
No. 10  478' --> 530'
No. 11  538' --> 513'
No. 12  534' --> 575'
No. 13  595' --> 692' (I think this must be wrong & doesn't match up in google earth)
No. 14  651' --> 630'
No. 15  648' --> 633'
No. 16  640' --> 630'
No. 17  650' --> 635'
No. 18  643' --> 669'


TK

[Matthew Essig]

4 and 7 at Chambers Bay
4 at Tumble Creek
3 and 11 at Pasatiempo

A few holes at the Gullane courses
12(?) at Lundin

How far up is 13(?) at Crail?
And 6 at Spyglass?
And 18 at Colorado GC?

[Michael Felton]

David - I'm struggling to picture a hole where you would have a 100 foot vertical rise covered in one shot and where you could see the flag to get it with your rangefinder.


I took a look at PGA Tour averages for shot height and found this: http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/


The highest average shot height is 32 yards with a driver and a 7 iron. Everything else is around 30 yards. 30 yards is 90 feet. Given that, I can't for the life of me imagine anywhere a single shot would climb by 100 feet.


The first hole that popped into my head was the 15th on Bethpage Black. That's pretty steep in the front, but I suspect is only around a 30 foot climb.

[Thomas Dai]

A few examples going uphill, various lengths -


1st at Painswick
1st at Kington
1st at Southerndown
16th at Tenby
17th at Ross-on-Wye
15th at Bristol and Clifton
13th at Nairn
........


One thing they all have in common - sore legs when you reach the top!


Atb