News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2016, 02:36:30 PM »
I'm pretty sure I've never played a Mike Strantz course.  If you could play only one, which would be the most representative of his work?  Would it be Tobacco Road?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2016, 02:52:12 PM »
I'm pretty sure I've never played a Mike Strantz course.  If you could play only one, which would be the most representative of his work?  Would it be Tobacco Road?


Yes, that's why we picked it for The Confidential Guide.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2016, 03:23:45 PM »
Tom,

I've only played one of Mike's courses, but based on what I saw at MPCC Shore and pics of other courses he did do you really think TR is most representative of his work?  Seems like its more the extreme outlier that gets most of the action/threads on GCA.com because its so far out-of-the-box...

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2016, 03:34:35 PM »
Tom,

I've only played one of Mike's courses, but based on what I saw at MPCC Shore and pics of other courses he did do you really think TR is most representative of his work?  Seems like its more the extreme outlier that gets most of the action/threads on GCA.com because its so far out-of-the-box...

Without a doubt, Tobacco Road is most representative of Strantz courses.  Among his 8 (or so) courses, more lean toward the TR end of the spectrum (including Tot Hill Farm, True Blue, Bulls Bay, Royal New Kent) than the MPCC side.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2016, 04:39:52 PM »
I have tried to stay out of this but I have to give some defense of my position concerning TR.  I have played TR at least 4 times.  I have also played Royal New Kent at least 4 times, and also played Stonehouse, Caledonia, True Blue, and Bulls Bay so I am very familiar with Strantz's work and while I do like those other courses, some more than others, I simply cannot find the same love for TR.  The last time I played the course was this past April and there was a frost delay so I stood at the first tee and watched at least 5 groups tee off and I would say at least a third to a half of the golfers missed the fairway and spent a bunch of time looking in the junk for their balls.  I hit a good tee shot on number one and then I hit what I thought was a good second shot - never found the ball.  5 hours later we arrived at the 16th tee to join two other groups that were waiting to tee off. (A ranger positioned himself at the corner of the dogleg to spot the tee shots for each group to try and speed up play  - this is a short par 4 and we are talking about golfers hitting far less than driver).  I am not saying that there aren't some really good holes on the course but others just drive me nuts.  Ran told me that he hit 8 iron into number 9 the last time he played it which is amazing to me but he has had a resurgence in his game so I guess anything is possible.  I guess I would play it again but I would have to be in the first group off.  Dormie is not far away and I would play it any day that I could.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2016, 06:52:24 PM »
Brian,

This recent thread on Bulls Bay seems to support my previous post.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43807.msg1501785.html#new

When I look at those pictures, I'm seeing much more MPCC Shore than the crazy wildness of TR.

Just to clarify, I'm not doubting that TR has become Mikes most known/popular/"filling up the tee sheets" course...it just doesn't seem to be as representative of the other stuff he's done.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2016, 10:13:35 PM »
Brian,

This recent thread on Bulls Bay seems to support my previous post.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43807.msg1501785.html#new

When I look at those pictures, I'm seeing much more MPCC Shore than the crazy wildness of TR.

Just to clarify, I'm not doubting that TR has become Mikes most known/popular/"filling up the tee sheets" course...it just doesn't seem to be as representative of the other stuff he's done.


I disagree. I've played Bulls Bay, and while it is not as wild as Tobacco Road, it has a similarly bold feel, as do several other courses I mentioned. Tobacco Road is far from an outlier in the Strantz portfolio.  Tot Hill Farm, for example, is even wilder and crazier than TR.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 10:15:34 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2016, 12:34:37 AM »
Jerry

You don't have to defend you position to me. TR is not a course for the moderately skilled golfer to play; it is not a complete test of golf. I can see the appeal from the sense that it is edgy and interesting and has some very cool features but it totally fails that ultimate litmus test of is it a course I could play everyday? Hell no just too many stupid features; punishing results; and punitive blind/disorienting situations.
UGH
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2016, 04:25:27 AM »
Jerry

You don't have to defend you position to me. TR is not a course for the moderately skilled golfer to play; it is not a complete test of golf. I can see the appeal from the sense that it is edgy and interesting and has some very cool features but it totally fails that ultimate litmus test of is it a course I could play everyday? Hell no just too many stupid features; punishing results; and punitive blind/disorienting situations.
UGH


Okay...I admit I never understood a litmus test based on how often one would play a course or if one would want to play it twice in one day....so with that caveat.  What if, for instance, the ultimate litmus test was can I play the course every month?  TR is a public course and generally people don't aim to pay for a game of golf everyday on public courses.  It seems to me your litmus test is more apt for a private course. Even so, my ultimate test, if I had one, wouldn't be anything like can I play the course everyday....that sounds like a prison sentence not a leisure activity choice  :D [size=78%].[/size]


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2016, 06:18:13 AM »
Bulls Bay and MPCC Shore are both private courses, built for a membership/clientele already/forever in place. I have to believe that impacts a design philosophy differently from a public-access/public-dependent course.


No hole at Tobacco Road deviates from the "wildness" element as do the final 2-3 holes at Tot Hill Farm. When you leave the 15th green and drive out into the open at THF, you shake your head as you do when emerging from a Lewis Carroll story.


Stonehouse and Royal New Kent have been played but once by me, but neither one left the impact that Tobacco Road did, and the same goes for True Blue. HoWeVeR, i would say that you should play two Strantz courses in your lifetime, if you can, and both are sited in golf destination areas: Tobacco Road and Caledonia. I expected Caledonia to be farther-out and wilder than it was. It was clearly Tobacco Road's cousin, but not nearly as wild.


I suspect that the TR land was heaving to begin with, or so easily shaped that Strantz could and did do what he wanted. In contrast, the low country of Myrtle Beach did not allow for the same flexibility (being an Indigo plantation, marshy and unstable in spots) and so a different skill set was needed to build an unforgettable and enjoyable golf course.


That said, if someone wishes to set up a GoFundMe to send me and Palotta to both coasts, to play Bulls Bay and MPCC Shore, we and our handlers are open to the idea.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2016, 08:06:21 AM »
Today, supporters (and I mean of the staunch variety) clearly outnumber naysayers. Its grades of 7-7-6-7 in Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide fell only behind Pinehurst No.2 and Old Town in North Carolina. A few years ago, Tobacco Road famously was placed in Golf Architecture Magazine’s Architects’ Choice Top 100 Golf Courses in the World.


Good wriite up and photos, Ran.  I am one of the naysayers but I wouldn't begrudge it a 'Doak' 6. 


My major issue with the course is the strategy is quite binary (eg, go for the green or lay up).  Rarely is there the infinite options created by  diagonally oriented hazards and greens.  The narrow greens and shallow greens never have a safe middle of the green to aim for so their is often little reason not to aim for a pin.  Some greens have no safe place to miss. Other greens are surrounded by safe places to miss. 


I think 1, 11, and 14 are my favorite holes and these seem to be the ones that have diagonal lines, infinite options, safe misses and bad misses. 


My least favorite features are the 6th green, the landing area of 7, the greensite on 9, the 12th hole and the 13th tee shot. 


I do love the visuals, including the great array of blind tee shots. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2016, 11:45:29 AM »
There is no doubt in my mind that Tobacco Road deserves to be a top-100 - hell, top 50, even - American golf course. Here's why.


First, the context. Tobacco Road is not a private club, and it's not a municipal course, so it does not have (much of) a consistent clientele. Nor is it supposed to. As such, when we think about it, we need to give it (and all other resort-type courses, by the way) more leeway for pushing the envelope than the exclusive private clubs that historically earn the bulk of the analysis on this site. To knock the course down a peg for not being one you would want to play every day is to hold the course to the wrong standard. I wouldn't want to play TR everyday, either, but what Mike Strantz did and was allowed to do makes it so fascinating that the normal concern of what playing it does to your golf ball takes a backseat to the sheer visual experience of it. If you can't take a four or five hour vacation from the way you've thought about the more "normal" golf courses you've played in order to greet TR on its own terms, then you're missing something important, IMO.


Second, the location. TR was built in one of the top - and therefore most competitive - resort golf markets in the country, and on the physical fringe of said market, no less. Going for broke and stepping close to the line between novelty and legitimate experience became the most sensible course of action from a business perspective.


Third, the (almost complete lack of) parameters. In an industry where architects, if being honest, would mostly complain about how a course developer handcuffed them on the way to yet another forgettable effort, TR seems to be a manifestation of the dream scenario: where an architect gets to build exactly what he wants. (Of course, this might terrify some architects because if they end up falling short, they can't lean on an over-involved developer as a crutch.) It's a pure exercise of vision that happens almost never. Strantz took his blank canvas and didn't do a forgettable but technically proficient landscape or portrait - he painted Dali's The Persistence of Memory for a world of people who think Mona Lisa is the greatest piece of art ever. For giving his bosses and golfers something so wild and different - yet, as Ran's excellent review stressed, eminently playable and fun - the course deserves to be rewarded much more highly than it is.


I saw the movie "The Lobster" the other night, and can only imagine how many people saw it, may have been expecting an off-beat love story, and left the theater thinking it was the worst thing they'd ever seen. They were mistaken, of course, because their concept of "film" or "story" is excessively narrow, and their default reaction to weirdness is to dismiss it, rather than respect the difference of perspective, confidence and creativity level that produced it. Golf courses are of course subject to a somewhat narrower set of aesthetic criteria than films, but Tobacco Road falls within those boundaries. The fact that it may be closer to those boundaries than any other golf course in the world is why it is so consistently misunderstood and underrated.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2016, 12:51:38 PM »
I'm with Tim. And while my immediate reaction was that Tobacco Road was awesome but not something I'd want to play every day, I'm not completely sure about that. The course has some genuinely fantastic holes that would be great on virtually any course if modified slightly to match aesthetically. With the local knowledge of multiple plays, I don't have any reason to think the course wouldn't get better and better as familiarity increased.


Ran also makes a good point about its playability for higher handicaps. I've played it with a 30+ handicap, and know two others firsthand who have played it. All of them loved it. I suspect it's mostly guys who take themselves a little more seriously who find it unappealing.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2016, 01:34:50 PM »
5 hours later we arrived at the 16th tee to join two other groups that were waiting to tee off. (A ranger positioned himself at the corner of the dogleg to spot the tee shots for each group to try and speed up play  - this is a short par 4 and we are talking about golfers hitting far less than driver).   

Jerry,  This happened to us as well.  It was the only course in the sandhills that took longer than 4 hours, and it was MUCH longer.  It certainly didn't help that it was the 2nd 18 on a 100 degree day, but that experience is what is keeping me from scheduling it in on another trip. 


My major issue with the course is the strategy is quite binary (eg, go for the green or lay up).  Rarely is there the infinite options created by  diagonally oriented hazards and greens.  The narrow greens and shallow greens never have a safe middle of the green to aim for so their is often little reason not to aim for a pin.  Some greens have no safe place to miss. Other greens are surrounded by safe places to miss. 


I think 1, 11, and 14 are my favorite holes and these seem to be the ones that have diagonal lines, infinite options, safe misses and bad misses. 


My least favorite features are the 6th green, the landing area of 7, the greensite on 9, the 12th hole and the 13th tee shot. 

I agree with much of this post.  I don't mind the occasional pass/fail shot, but the nature of the repetitive skinny greens and the level of penalty that comes with missing them can be a bit much.  I think there is much to be said that playing aggressively conservative could yield good scores, and most holes offer the ability to do so.  I still think it's hard to get out of there without a big number or two from a slight miss.

Ran also makes a good point about its playability for higher handicaps. I've played it with a 30+ handicap, and know two others firsthand who have played it. All of them loved it. I suspect it's mostly guys who take themselves a little more seriously who find it unappealing.

I think this is right, while I've done better at detaching the experience with the score as I've aged, there is still some correlation, and this course seems hard to get around without one or two "numbers". 

I also think I would enjoy the course more, if I was a local and had the pleasure of being a member at somewhere like Mid Pines/Pine Needles, Dorme, Pinehurst, etc.  I think if I was able to enjoy those classic courses regularly, a couple trips to the crazy course down the road a year would be fun.  For me, when I'm taking a couple hour flight to spend a 3 - 4 days in an area with several great courses, and I don't get to play as much as I'd like as is, I'm not sure the experience is as worth it for me, with my group.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2016, 01:43:07 PM »
I found the course to be fascinating, frustrating, interesting, and perplexing based on my single time playing it.

The only drawback, in my view, is the name. It's unfortunate that the course name promotes a harmful plant and the products derived therefrom.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2016, 01:59:14 PM »
The only drawback, in my view, is the name. It's unfortunate that the course name promotes a harmful plant and the products derived therefrom.


This is a great point. I'd like to see them modernize and change the name to E-Liquid Road or Vape Juice Road, for the children.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2016, 05:52:18 PM »
The test is not if I would like to play the course everyday rather when I leave the 18th hole do I want to go back to the first tee and play it again.  I feel that way about Caledonia or True Blue and certainly Bulls Bay, but less so with Royal New Kent, Stonehouse and definitely not with Tobacco Road. I played Dormie today and I would have gladly gone back to the first tee and played it again. 

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2016, 06:18:45 PM »
The test is not if I would like to play the course everyday rather when I leave the 18th hole do I want to go back to the first tee and play it again.  I feel that way about Caledonia or True Blue and certainly Bulls Bay, but less so with Royal New Kent, Stonehouse and definitely not with Tobacco Road. I played Dormie today and I would have gladly gone back to the first tee and played it again.
I don't think that's it either. Tobacco Road isn't the only game in town. Heck, I imagine Oakmont would fail your test, wouldn't it?


I'd argue that Tobacco Road, like a lot of great pieces of art or literature, is great because it elicits a strong and perhaps uncomfortable reaction, but in a productive way. I'm not sure I'd play it twice as a 36-hole day in Pinehurst either. In fact, I'd probably pair it with Southern Pines or Pine Needles for the sake of extreme contrast. I don't think that makes TR any less great.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2016, 07:18:08 PM »
Tim,

You said ....

"where an architect gets to build exactly what he wants. (Of course, this might terrify some architects because if they end up falling short, they can't lean on an over-involved developer as a crutch.) "

You fully realize that's horseshit ... I'm always amused when these statements are made. I would comfortably say I've met 200 architects (probably more since I attend all the matches between the societies) ... and nobody is short of self confidence.

Everybody wants a clean canvas.

I was asked recently whether I felt pressure finally getting to build what was essentially a new course. My answer was after nearly 25 years, I felt relief that I finally got the opportunity to fully express myself.

... perhaps I'm a bit defensive, but I feel the general impressions of architects are quite often harsh on GCA
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2016, 08:18:44 PM »
The course has some genuinely fantastic holes that would be great on virtually any course if modified slightly to match aesthetically.


A slight aesthetic modification of a Strantz hole would not make it a fit with other golf holes by any other architect.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2016, 09:04:30 PM »
Tim,

You said ....

"where an architect gets to build exactly what he wants. (Of course, this might terrify some architects because if they end up falling short, they can't lean on an over-involved developer as a crutch.) "

You fully realize that's horseshit ... I'm always amused when these statements are made. I would comfortably say I've met 200 architects (probably more since I attend all the matches between the societies) ... and nobody is short of self confidence.

Everybody wants a clean canvas.

I was asked recently whether I felt pressure finally getting to build what was essentially a new course. My answer was after nearly 25 years, I felt relief that I finally got the opportunity to fully express myself.

... perhaps I'm a bit defensive, but I feel the general impressions of architects are quite often harsh on GCA

Forget the 200 architects, there are 700 amateurs on here that do no lack self confidence in their design abilities.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2016, 09:51:34 PM »
Tim,

You said ....

"where an architect gets to build exactly what he wants. (Of course, this might terrify some architects because if they end up falling short, they can't lean on an over-involved developer as a crutch.) "

You fully realize that's horseshit ... I'm always amused when these statements are made. I would comfortably say I've met 200 architects (probably more since I attend all the matches between the societies) ... and nobody is short of self confidence.

Everybody wants a clean canvas.

I was asked recently whether I felt pressure finally getting to build what was essentially a new course. My answer was after nearly 25 years, I felt relief that I finally got the opportunity to fully express myself.

... perhaps I'm a bit defensive, but I feel the general impressions of architects are quite often harsh on GCA
I was a bit hyperbolic there, but Ian, you admit that it took 25 years in the business for you to get a chance to "fully express" yourself. Strantz got that chance pretty early on in his own career with Tobacco Road, and he fully expressed himself in the unique confluence of context and geography he was presented. The result was something totally original and stunning; he didn't hold back, and he produced as controversial a course as exists in this country, rather than something solid, fun but ultimately undistinguished. That was my point.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2016, 10:36:26 PM »
Early in his career....?

Born in 1955
From 1979-1987 worked with Fazio
First solo 1993 Caledonia

Tobacco Road 1998

That's 20 years later and he's in his 40's
And its not even his first or second project


I too like his work and the risks he took ... but he was ready for the opportunity too.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2016, 11:11:59 PM »
From purely an engineering design standpoint as it relates to drainage I thought TR was the second worse course I ever played.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated Tobacco Road profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2016, 02:02:39 AM »
From purely an engineering design standpoint as it relates to drainage I thought TR was the second worse course I ever played.


The drainage grates in the landing area a few yards short of the par 5 1st green are definitely a lowlight. 


Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back