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Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2016, 09:29:11 PM »
I think I'm most curious about seeing and putting on these greens - not only in terms of how they were designed and shaped to provide interest and challenge for two times the number of possible angles of approach, but also in terms of how well (or how badly, more like it) I'll be able to read greens that will have (I imagine) half the usual number of visual cues and contours.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2016, 02:17:45 AM »
Does this 2 for 1 concept actually save any significant money for the property owner over having 2 separate courses. You still have 36 greens and multiple bunkers. Are some of the bunkers built for multi direction?


nothing significant...
just 1/2 ;D
I'm guessing it has less bunkers than the usual 18 hole course


Yes, its half the maintenance of two courses...because it is one course which is reversable....as the French say....voila!


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2016, 03:27:57 AM »
I would very much like to play a course like this and while doing so (and indeed afterwards) ponder the various reversable puzzles it presents.


A couple of questions -


 - are there some pin positions that are only really accessable when the course is played one-way?
 - are any maintenance practices envisaged to be different to a 'conventional' course?
 - how was the prevailing wind taken into consideration in the routing and lay-out?


Overall a fascinating idea. I hope it does well.


Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2016, 08:57:47 AM »
A couple of questions -


 - are there some pin positions that are only really accessable when the course is played one-way?
 - are any maintenance practices envisaged to be different to a 'conventional' course?
 - how was the prevailing wind taken into consideration in the routing and lay-out?



1.  I tried very hard to build the greens so that there was no wasted space.  I didn't want them to have to be way larger than normal for the concept to work, or to have half the green pinnable in one direction and the other half pinnable in the other.  I think we've succeeded in this.  The greens average around 6000 square feet or maybe 6500 [smaller than the last three courses I've built], and I think the hole locations work well enough that they can just use the standard "front, middle, back" setup rotation that many courses do ... the difference being that when you are alternating the direction of play every day, some of that is working backwards, but it works that way too.


2.  The main difference in terms of maintenance is how much more fairway there is.  For example in the diagram you can see the fairway disappearing off to one side of the page, because it connects right from #1 green to #2 fairway and from #1 tee back through #18 green and up that fairway.  You could putt a ball from #1 tee all the way to #3 green before you had to get it airborne over a bit of native rough on the par-3 4th.  That's an enormous amount of fairway [probably 40% more than a normal course] because the fairway comes all the way back to the tee instead of starting 150 yards out.  But otherwise there are really no special maintenance practices, apart from keeping straight that you have to move the tees every day, sometimes from one side of the green to the other.


3.  Same as usual ... we think about the prevailing wind when thinking of approach shots, but we know the wind could blow from other directions so the main thing is to give some leeway for wherever it might be blowing.  That is particularly important on links courses, and despite the trees at the margins, this really does feel and play like a links in many respects.


For me, one of the best takeaways from the project is how much more the design is focused on golf shots rather than visuals.  We made the decision early not to concentrate too much on the visuals, because what works better one way tends to work worse the other.  That's not to say that it isn't interesting to look at, just that the focus range is narrower, and the coolest things only come into view when you get close to them, which is a feature of St. Andrews.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2016, 09:25:55 AM »
I would very much like to play a course like this and while doing so (and indeed afterwards) ponder the various reversable puzzles it presents.


Overall a fascinating idea. I hope it does well.


Atb

Agreed. I can't think of a more intriguing couple of plays.  Only time will tell if its a gimmick or all the problems have been solved. 


I think on here we undervalue the 'tinkering' that has taken place on the great courses. Successful ideas tweaked, rough spots smoothed. Sometimes to the benefit of the course,  sometimes not. However it would be a foolish man who tinkered with this based on their likes or dislikes on certain holes.   With 36 new holes of golf I would anticipate there will be some adjustment needed and as Tom has previously pointed out, one routing will over time be preferred to the other.  I would like to think any revisions will necessarily involve the original team!

Good luck with this one Tom I would really like to visit.  I also hope this remains a one off. If it proves a commercial hit I dread to think what some of the 'template' courses might turn out like with less time and thought put into them.


Let's make GCA grate again!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2016, 09:48:18 AM »
Keep in mind that the existing course at Forest Dunes is a wonderful course and provides a really neat contrast to The Loop.


A trip up there will not be a trip wasted!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2016, 11:32:37 AM »
Thanks for the above insights Tom.
Atb

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2016, 11:38:50 AM »
As a kid we used to play 1,500 yard holes on slow week days, say from 5 tee to 9 green. Seems like an ideal course to do this!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2016, 11:40:23 AM »
Where is this course?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2016, 02:32:35 PM »

Forest Dunes Golf Club
6376 Forest Dunes Drive
Roscommon, MI 48653 
USA


https://goo.gl/maps/wFnTmvnWE2s
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 02:34:13 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2016, 07:23:10 PM »
Keep in mind that the existing course at Forest Dunes is a wonderful course and provides a really neat contrast to The Loop.


A trip up there will not be a trip wasted!


Dan, does the Loop start in the sandy areas as the Weiskopf course does?   If not I would think the terrain and vegetation for the Loop would be similar to the forest part of the original course.  There were some back nine holes that were similar in feeling to the heathery courses around London. 

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2016, 07:55:52 PM »
Bill - no it doesn't start with the sandy areas you see on Weiskophfs 16/17.


It's a very wide course (at least the parts I saw), and I don't think you get anywhere the same degree of narrowness you get at Weiskopf.   Not that Weiskopf's is crazy narrow.


That said, I think it has brilliant ground movement.   I'm guessing it takes a lot of work to make ground movement work on a wide layout that can play both ways, but I think you will be really happy with what you see in person.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2016, 05:50:16 PM »
I visited Forest Dunes last weekend and picked up a map of the Loop in the shop.  Perhaps someone with the requisite skill can download the pdf file and post it here. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5vjkWAV3Q8iRjdtLXdCbG9xX2M


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2016, 09:31:21 PM »

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2016, 11:33:13 PM »
Thanks Dan!

If you look at the SW corner of the map, you get a hint of how much fun, or mind-blowing, it's going to be to play this course.  There are four greens in close proximity.  Two of them are par 3s on the Red course, one on on the front 9 and one on the back 9, and two are par 4s, one each on the front and back.  The par 3 SW corner Red greens host par 4s on the reverse course, and the par 4 Red greens host par 3s on the reverse course.   It's an interesting puzzle like this throughout the courses.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2016, 12:24:51 AM »
Norbert! Welcome back - where have you been?

Yes, a purposely designed and built from scratch reversible course, err, courses. It -- or they -- plays one way one day, the other the next.

You missed all the talk while you were away
Norbert has been building reversible golf holes for Dan Hixson at Silvies Valley Ranch.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2016, 11:38:38 AM »
Norbert! Welcome back - where have you been?

Yes, a purposely designed and built from scratch reversible course, err, courses. It -- or they -- plays one way one day, the other the next.

You missed all the talk while you were away
Norbert has been building reversible golf holes for Dan Hixson at Silvies Valley Ranch.


I cannot wait to see this course too! Don't mean to thread jack, but any updates on timeline with Silvies Valley Ranch?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2016, 09:22:06 PM »
Sorry for the thread Jack, but in answer to the previous post, http://silviesvalleyranch.com/golf.php is the lastest from their website. Being old and forgetful, I forget much of what Slag has shared with me. The main thing I remember was they had irrigation problems last year setting back their schedule.


I was also pleased to a certain extent to see that Mike Combs is working out well as the Super. even though they stole him from my club.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2016, 10:25:38 PM »
Sorry for the thread Jack, but in answer to the previous post, http://silviesvalleyranch.com/golf.php is the lastest from their website. Being old and forgetful, I forget much of what Slag has shared with me. The main thing I remember was they had irrigation problems last year setting back their schedule.


I was also pleased to a certain extent to see that Mike Combs is working out well as the Super. even though they stole him from my club.


It seems to be a different concept than The Loop and it does not appear to be a fully reversible course. From the description I first thought it had 19 greens, which would probably be also considered reversible. But this course appears to have 27 greens? Still interesting, but looses some of the cost reductions.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak Tells You How To Play A Hole At The Loop
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2016, 05:35:29 PM »

It seems to be a different concept than The Loop and it does not appear to be a fully reversible course. From the description I first thought it had 19 greens, which would probably be also considered reversible. But this course appears to have 27 greens? Still interesting, but looses some of the cost reductions.


Slightly different true as there are nine unique holes and nine shared holes in each direction of play.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne