Alternative Scottish venues for Open

[Ben Stephens]

Regarding the issues with Mr Trump and the male members of Muirfield who still live in the 19th century. What possible alternatives would there be in Scotland especially West Lothian Area to host the Open


West Lothian

Renaissance Club - maybe too private the course is good enough but is it a traditional links?

Gullane - composite course using no1 and no2 - R&A tend to prefer a settled course rather than a composite

Luffness - too short and not challenging enough

Archerfield - too new and modern

Dunbar - too far away from Edinburgh


The no brainer for me is North Berwick West Links but it would therefore need two new holes beyond the dunes to eliminate existing holes 1 and 18 which would then be used as a tented village. It would be challenging enough and would be great to see Pit Perfection and Redan as closing holes with 2nd become 1st hole and 17 becoming 18th hole. The question is will the club make those changes having 20 or 21 holes on site and still play the Original course and Open course

[Ben Stephens]

Regarding Turnberry and possibly Troon the alternative on this one would be Prestwick maybe 2025 which means that it was 100 years since the last Prestwick Open. Like at North Berwick possibly take 15 and 18 out and build two longer holes north of the site like Adrian Stiff said a few years ago and finish on the 14th green. This would be like what USGA did with the 2013 Open by taking it to Merion.


There are other many courses on the Ayrshire coast but the question is are they a stern enough test.


Or R&A could go north to Embo, Royal Dornoch or Castle Stuart to boost the ecomony in Inverness


Alternatively maybe use Portmarnock even though Ireland is not part of the UK


Bingo maybe it is time to take it to Wales for the first time

[Tim Gallant]

Regarding the issues with Mr Trump and the male members of Muirfield who still live in the 19th century. What possible alternatives would there be in Scotland especially West Lothian Area to host the Open


West Lothian

Renaissance Club - maybe too private the course is good enough but is it a traditional links?

Gullane - composite course using no1 and no2 - R&A tend to prefer a settled course rather than a composite

Luffness - too short and not challenging enough

Archerfield - too new and modern

Dunbar - too far away from Edinburgh


The no brainer for me is North Berwick West Links but it would therefore need two new holes beyond the dunes to eliminate existing holes 1 and 18 which would then be used as a tented village. It would be challenging enough and would be great to see Pit Perfection and Redan as closing holes with 2nd become 1st hole and 17 becoming 18th hole. The question is will the club make those changes having 20 or 21 holes on site and still play the Original course and Open course

Interesting theory Ben re: NBWL, however, there physically is no room to build additional holes, or extend the ones that are currently there (other than 10 yards here or there). To give you an idea of what pros would shoot - last year we held the Scottish Open qualifier, and the medallist went something like 65/64. I think the pros would tear this place to shreds.


That said, what a dream that would be!!

[Ben Stephens]

Regarding the issues with Mr Trump and the male members of Muirfield who still live in the 19th century. What possible alternatives would there be in Scotland especially West Lothian Area to host the Open


East Lothian

Renaissance Club - maybe too private the course is good enough but is it a traditional links?

Gullane - composite course using no1 and no2 - R&A tend to prefer a settled course rather than a composite

Luffness - too short and not challenging enough

Archerfield - too new and modern

Dunbar - too far away from Edinburgh


The no brainer for me is North Berwick West Links but it would therefore need two new holes beyond the dunes to eliminate existing holes 1 and 18 which would then be used as a tented village. It would be challenging enough and would be great to see Pit Perfection and Redan as closing holes with 2nd become 1st hole and 17 becoming 18th hole. The question is will the club make those changes having 20 or 21 holes on site and still play the Original course and Open course

Interesting theory Ben re: NBWL, however, there physically is no room to build additional holes, or extend the ones that are currently there (other than 10 yards here or there). To give you an idea of what pros would shoot - last year we held the Scottish Open qualifier, and the medallist went something like 65/64. I think the pros would tear this place to shreds.


That said, what a dream that would be!!

NBWL How about combining Hole 5 and 6 into one long par 4 (The Country Club does it for the US Open) and build a par 3 as well as 2 long par 4s in the dunes beyond 9th green and 10th tee? that will certainly stiffen up the course. 


I absolutely love playing NBWL and imagine if the 2nd was the opening hole and we would see pros playing off the beach for 2nd shots

[Ed Tilley]

Personally, I'd like to see the Open truly become the Open and visit venues outside the UK. The obvious provisos would be:

- Needs to be in July
- Needs to be a genuine links course of an equivalent "standard" to those currently on the rota
- Needs to be in a country in R&A jurisdiction (i.e. not US or Mexico)

Those conditions would exclude a lot of the world anyway - e.g. the Southern hemisphere would be out due to being mid winter. Realistically this would mean Northern Europe and Canada. What courses could logistically host the Open - Portmarnock?, any of the Dutch courses? Could Le Touquet be changed to be suitable? Is Cabot links too remote?

[Josh Stevens]

Clearly Wales is the outlier in not having a course on the rota.  What are the options or the limitations down there -other than the rain.

[Tim Gallant]

Personally, I'd like to see the Open truly become the Open and visit venues outside the UK. The obvious provisos would be:

- Needs to be in July
- Needs to be a genuine links course of an equivalent "standard" to those currently on the rota
- Needs to be in a country in R&A jurisdiction (i.e. not US or Mexico)

Those conditions would exclude a lot of the world anyway - e.g. the Southern hemisphere would be out due to being mid winter. Realistically this would mean Northern Europe and Canada. What courses could logistically host the Open - Portmarnock?, any of the Dutch courses? Could Le Touquet be changed to be suitable? Is Cabot links too remote?

Portmarnock, although a fine course, is automatically stricken off the list due to the statement from the R&A yesterday.

[Michael Graham]

Regarding the issues with Mr Trump and the male members of Muirfield who still live in the 19th century. What possible alternatives would there be in Scotland especially West Lothian Area to host the Open


West Lothian - a golfing backwater, at least in terms of Open worthy courses.

Renaissance Club - maybe too private the course is good enough but is it a traditional links?

Gullane - composite course using no1 and no2 - R&A tend to prefer a settled course rather than a composite

Luffness - too short and not challenging enough

Archerfield - too new and modern

Dunbar - too far away from Edinburgh


The no brainer for me is North Berwick West Links but it would therefore need two new holes beyond the dunes to eliminate existing holes 1 and 18 which would then be used as a tented village. It would be challenging enough and would be great to see Pit Perfection and Redan as closing holes with 2nd become 1st hole and 17 becoming 18th hole. The question is will the club make those changes having 20 or 21 holes on site and still play the Original course and Open course

[Niall C]

Ben

The problem with your OP is that at least one of the clubs listed is an all male club. As for courses in Ayrshire, many of the courses there have been used as Open Qualifiers and for other major events, and of course for the Open itself. If the only criteria was being a good enough test then there would be many options down that way but clearly that's not the case, and now we have one more criteria and that is that any club attached mustn't be a single sex club.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

The problem with your OP is that at least one of the clubs listed is an all male club. As for courses in Ayrshire, many of the courses there have been used as Open Qualifiers and for other major events, and of course for the Open itself. If the only criteria was being a good enough test then there would be many options down that way but clearly that's not the case, and now we have one more criteria and that is that any club attached mustn't be a single sex club.

Niall

Niall I would be interested in knowing which one is still male only. It is ridiculous in this day and age that some still are. On the other hand it gives other venues the chance to offer to improve their course so that it has a chance of hosting a future Open. I think the USGA have got it spot on in choosing venues for the US Open by balancing things out by going to public courses and new courses which gives the event more variation but the course criteria for the Open is different to an US Open


Surely Scotland can provide another venue or the Scottish Government could set out a new links course designed for the Open and is open to the public ie not a private club if Trump Turnberry and Aberdeen plus Troon and Muirfield is off the rota which leaves only St Andrews and Carnoustie on the rota in theory.


What Muirfield has done is really bad for golf and it is the news that Scottish Golf Union and England Golf don't want to hear as they are struggling to increase participation numbers which the overall no playing golf in the UK is going down as a whole which means the funding they would receive from Sports England will go down further.

[MClutterbuck]

Personally, I'd like to see the Open truly become the Open and visit venues outside the UK. The obvious provisos would be:

- Needs to be in July
- Needs to be a genuine links course of an equivalent "standard" to those currently on the rota
- Needs to be in a country in R&A jurisdiction (i.e. not US or Mexico)

Those conditions would exclude a lot of the world anyway - e.g. the Southern hemisphere would be out due to being mid winter. Realistically this would mean Northern Europe and Canada. What courses could logistically host the Open - Portmarnock?, any of the Dutch courses? Could Le Touquet be changed to be suitable? Is Cabot links too remote?

Mid winter in the Southern Hemishpere can be warmer golf than a Scottish summer... might be tough to get fast and dry conditions though.

[Mark Chaplin]

HCEG members basically see themselves as a gentlemans club with a very fine golf course attached. They cannot disappear quietly under the radar and let those who want to visit on a Tuesday or Thursday to continue doing so.

There are significant risks in having a championship outside of the U.K. in the last 3 months there has been a 10% change in the pound/euro rate, last year it was 20% in the other direction. That could be worth millions if rates went against you.

[Marty Bonnar]

EAST Lothian, Ben.

Cheers,
F.

[MClutterbuck]

HCEG members basically see themselves as a gentlemans club with a very fine golf course attached. They cannot disappear quietly under the radar and let those who want to visit on a Tuesday or Thursday to continue doing so.

There are significant risks in having a championship outside of the U.K. in the last 3 months there has been a 10% change in the pound/euro rate, last year it was 20% in the other direction. That could be worth millions if rates went against you.

I think there is a greater risk of devaluing the product. It is The Open Championship, but for a lot us it is the British and I believe should remain in Britain.


As an aside, nice recognition from the R&A awarding the Argentine Open Champion a spot at The Open. 

[Jason Topp]

I would rather they not narrow the fairways and add bunkers to existing perfectly good golf courses.  Keep the remaining courses in the rota and all would be fine.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Why not Royal County Down?

[James Brown]

Why not Royal County Down?

+1


Tough enough and probably enough space. 

[mike_beene]

I think there are enough venues already. Back to St Andrews every 5 years is something I hope continues.Waiting 7 or 8 years on the others works well.And Hoylake is a recent return.I am afraid North Berwick would be ruined by messing with it. Leave Prestwick alone and it is too tight anyway. Is Western Gailes men only?

[Ben Stephens]

EAST Lothian, Ben.

Cheers,
F.

Thanks Marty! got my bearings wrong

[Jon Wiggett]

The best replacement would be to find one in the local area. The Gullane composite course would certainly fit the bill very well and be welcomed by the locals. I suspect the flack Muirfield will get from the locals will be the biggest pressure point.


Jon

[Niall C]

Why not Royal County Down?

+1


Tough enough and probably enough space.

I've never played there but hear it is fantastic, however it does fail the basic criteria on this thread and that is it isn't in Scotland.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall I would be interested in knowing which one is still male only. It is ridiculous in this day and age that some still are.

Ben

I'll let you work it out for yourself. The fact that you want to know and give them stick when previously you were blissfully unaware and presumably happy to play golf there does speak to me that you care more about the politics of the situation rather than anything else.

You suggest that it is ridiculous in this day and age that some clubs still are male only (do you think the same of female only clubs ?), while I think it potentially worrying that in this day and age that a group of individuals are harangued and legislated against for associating with each other in the way they wish.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Ben,


Did you know that there are, apparently, more female only than male only golf clubs in Scotland?

[Adam Lawrence]

Ben,


Did you know that there are, apparently, more female only than male only golf clubs in Scotland?

But, with respect, none of them are candidates to host the world's greatest golf tournament.

[Mark Pearce]

Ben,


Did you know that there are, apparently, more female only than male only golf clubs in Scotland?

But, with respect, none of them are candidates to host the world's greatest golf tournament.

This is true.  Does that make their discrimination any more egregious?