"Streamsong, the golf resort from hell" - (that's a quote, not my opinion)

[David Sucher]

https://twitter.com/LoriAnnBurd/status/732298776816259072
I've asked writer & her boss to clarify or withdraw, but they are good with the Tweet.
Oh well, fact-free world growing.

(Trying to post image but can't figure it out !)

[Kalen Braley]

Fair to say, I think her brief twitter BIO probably explains it.

"Environmental Health Director, Center for Biological Diversity. Also, a long walk taker, lawyer, feminist and bug lover."

P.S.  If you look at her other tweets, that puts things into perspective too...

[Jason Thurman]

You asked an environmentalist and her boss to clarify why she tweeted disapproval of a golf resort?

[David Sucher]

Yes, I asked them to offer some facts.
The organization is a reputable one but has made a mistake.
I'm a tree hugger so I care that organizations like
@CenterForBioDiv
should be scrupulous in reporting.

I'm a skeptic, not a cynic.

[Frank M]

I'd agree.

They have one hell of a facility with two, and soon to be three, hella good golf courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Why, because they fenced out the boars?


(A note.  In all the time we were building the course, the client kept asking if I thought they should spend $2 million fencing the whole property to keep out the wild boars.  I had never seen one on the property, but heard them occasionally in the bushes on the perimeter.  After I saw what they could do to a fairway in France, I recommended the fence.  And at the opening weekend, I was on the bus back to the hotel with a bunch of golf VIP's including Mike Davis, and there was a giant boar just standing out where the road turns toward the hotel.  Everyone's jaw hit the ground.)

[Bill Seitz]

Why, because they fenced out the boars?


(A note.  In all the time we were building the course, the client kept asking if I thought they should spend $2 million fencing the whole property to keep out the wild boars.  I had never seen one on the property, but heard them occasionally in the bushes on the perimeter.  After I saw what they could do to a fairway in France, I recommended the fence.  And at the opening weekend, I was on the bus back to the hotel with a bunch of golf VIP's including Mike Davis, and there was a giant boar just standing out where the road turns toward the hotel.  Everyone's jaw hit the ground.)

Then what are the alligators supposed to eat?!

[Adam Lawrence]

Why, because they fenced out the boars?


(A note.  In all the time we were building the course, the client kept asking if I thought they should spend $2 million fencing the whole property to keep out the wild boars.  I had never seen one on the property, but heard them occasionally in the bushes on the perimeter.  After I saw what they could do to a fairway in France, I recommended the fence.  And at the opening weekend, I was on the bus back to the hotel with a bunch of golf VIP's including Mike Davis, and there was a giant boar just standing out where the road turns toward the hotel.  Everyone's jaw hit the ground.)

Then what are the alligators supposed to eat?!

Surely golfers?

[Mike Sweeney]

Why, because they fenced out the boars?


(A note.  In all the time we were building the course, the client kept asking if I thought they should spend $2 million fencing the whole property to keep out the wild boars.  I had never seen one on the property, but heard them occasionally in the bushes on the perimeter.  After I saw what they could do to a fairway in France, I recommended the fence.  And at the opening weekend, I was on the bus back to the hotel with a bunch of golf VIP's including Mike Davis, and there was a giant boar just standing out where the road turns toward the hotel.  Everyone's jaw hit the ground.)

When I started this thread:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62623.msg1490497.html#msg1490497


I was trying to spark a conversation about the uniqueness of certain golf properties, Streamsong included, where the Super has to be way more than a Super. This story from Tom Doak certainly adds to the legend.


Golf could do a better job of explaining where they contribute to the environment. Another "lost opportunity" by the USGA....

[Mark Bourgeois]

People here are disputing that a phosphate mine in the Everglades drainage area isn't hell? Alrighty then.

[JC Jones]

People here are disputing that a phosphate mine in the Everglades drainage area isn't hell? Alrighty then.

Give the man from the bayou a harrrumph.

[David Sucher]

People here are disputing that a phosphate mine in the Everglades drainage area isn't hell? Alrighty then.

I'll explain a bit more later why I posted, more of the exchange with Lori Burd (the writer) and why fact-free discussion is not good for anyone, including golfers and tree huggers.

[JC Jones]

People here are disputing that a phosphate mine in the Everglades drainage area isn't hell? Alrighty then.

I'll explain a bit more later why I posted, more of the exchange with Lori Burd (the writer) and why fact-free discussion is not good for anyone, including golfers and tree huggers.

Can't wait for the explanation because I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with both the exchange and this thread.

[David Sucher]

Can't wait for the explanation because I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with both the exchange and this thread.



Patience, friend.
Patience.

[K Rafkin]

I'm also a little bit confused.  I'm not sure how an unjustified tweet from a singular indiviudal (there is no actual article attached to the tweet) from someone with 500 followers needs to be discussed.  Twitter is full of stuff like this. 


This all feels like a big non-story to me.

[David Sucher]

"I'm also a little bit confused.  I'm not sure how an unjustified tweet from a singular indiviudal (there is no actual article attached to the tweet) from someone with 500 followers needs to be discussed.  Twitter is full of stuff like this. 

"This all feels like a big non-story to me."


—-


Fair enough. I will try to explain.
I read the tweet written by Lori Burd, @LoriAnnBurd one of the staff attorneys at
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/
which is a reputable & good-sized organization and 42,500 followers on Twitter so it has some real influence...
I asked her several things:
Is it dangerous for golfers to play?
Was the site not remediated properly?
Is mining still being done improperly & not by regulations?
Her response was that she had no facts, that it wasn't her job to have facts blah-blah-blah.
I then asked why she would cast aspersions without any facts?
Then she blocked me.
I then asked her boss, Kiernan Suckling, @KieranSuckling and he blew it off and said that she was simply stating an aesthetic opinion...that the course was "ugly". I laugh at that though I admire a boss loyalty for trying to protect a staffer from making stupid mistake.
So why I care? I don't like people who make statements without some sort of factual basis. It’s ugly. Honesty is a core value of golf and one thing (of many) I admire about it. You may not care and that's fine: Don't care. You have a right to not care.
But I do care both as a golfer and an environmentalist. I want sustainable golf. I want honest environmentalism.
If Ms Burd did indeed have some real facts about Streamsong, I'd want to know.
I'd have second thoughts about playing at Streamsong for instance if there was all sorts of leachate bubbling up to breath.
I'd think less of the Streamsong operation or of Florida law or whatever.
I'd ask her if her organization has filed any complaints with Florida regulators.
Conversely, if she has no facts she shouldn't go around spreading falsehoods and at very least take down her Tweet.
If someone else doesn't care and is happy to live in fact-free world, cool.
Plenty of other people like that so that person would be in good company.
So does that help?
---

[George Pazin]

So does that help?
---

Nope.


 

[Buck Wolter]

"I'm also a little bit confused.  I'm not sure how an unjustified tweet from a singular indiviudal (there is no actual article attached to the tweet) from someone with 500 followers needs to be discussed.  Twitter is full of stuff like this. 

"This all feels like a big non-story to me."


—-


Fair enough. I will try to explain.
I read the tweet written by Lori Burd, @LoriAnnBurd one of the staff attorneys at
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/
which is a reputable & good-sized organization and 42,500 followers on Twitter so it has some real influence...
I asked her several things:
Is it dangerous for golfers to play?
Was the site not remediated properly?
Is mining still being done improperly & not by regulations?
Her response was that she had no facts, that it wasn't her job to have facts blah-blah-blah.
I then asked why she would cast aspersions without any facts?
Then she blocked me.
I then asked her boss, Kiernan Suckling, @KieranSuckling and he blew it off and said that she was simply stating an aesthetic opinion...that the course was "ugly". I laugh at that though I admire a boss loyalty for trying to protect a staffer from making stupid mistake.
So why I care?.I don't like people who make statements without some sort of factual basis. Its’ ugly. You may not care and that's fine: Don't care. You have a right to not care.
But I do care both as a golfer and an environmentalist. I want sustainable golf.
If Ms Burd did indeed have some real facts about Streamsong, I'd want to know.
I'd have second thoughts about playing at Streamsong for instance if there was all sorts of leachate bubbling up to breath.
I'd think less of the Streamsong operation or of Florida law or whatever.
I'd ask her if her organization has filed any complaints with Florida regulators.
Conversely, if she has no facts she shouldn't go around spreading falsehoods and at very least take down her Tweet.
If someone else doesn't care and is happy to live in fact-free world, cool.
Plenty of other people like that so that person would be in good company.
So does that help?
---

David-
Post away -- we need some new topics.

I think you can argue that a huge amount of what's going on today in Politics is a battle over private property rights --I'm sure she feels the Bern and would want  Mosaic to be forced into Bankruptcy to turn this back into Swamp rather than some shrine to Capitalism (I mean that in a good way).  Strip mine to a Golf Course? -- has to be one of the worst things possible to an Environmental Justice Warrior regardless of the facts.


 

[David Sucher]

So does that help?
---

Nope.


 

Then I give up. Now you know to ignore anything I post. 

[David Sucher]

David-
Post away -- we need some new topics.

I think you can argue that a huge amount of what's going on today in Politics is a battle over private property rights --I'm sure she feels the Bern and would want  Mosaic to be forced into Bankruptcy to turn this back into Swamp rather than some shrine to Capitalism (I mean that in a good way).  Strip mine to a Golf Course? -- has to be one of the worst things possible to an Environmental Justice Warrior regardless of the facts.


---

Could be part of it, Buck, for sure. Plain old anti-private property mentality.

But what angers me (yeah Donald Trump, whom I dislike, has made it OK to say "Sure, I'm angry because...") is that Ms Burd is decreasing credibility of her organization by such loose and unsubstantiated talk.
And I happen to like a lot of these enviro groups -- they do a lot of good.
If she had ANY info, even arguable, disputable info, then at least there would be an honest disagreement.
I suggested to her group that they either clarify/substantiate the Tweet or take it down with an explanation.
So far, it's still there.
----

And let's not get into whether capitalism is OK. 
I've spent my entire career in business and am very pro free-enterprise.

But capitalism needs regulation to function and honest enviro groups are an essential part to make system work.
So angers me when I see sloppy work by groups I care about.
Yeah, a lot of folks on either side don't understand. 

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I think I understand what you're saying.  Absolute government control is just as undesirable as unfettered corporate control.  As with anything, a healthy balance is needed to benefit the most amount of people, most of the time.

However in many facets of our society.... political/business/religion the talking heads seem to want to polarize more and more, instead of focusing on something reasonable in the middle.  Just like it hasn't worked out for several other countries that came before us, I don't think its going to work out for the US either...

[Jamey Bryan]

David,

I share many of your views, though I'm pretty conservative in how I think governmental regulation should function.

That said, I was intrigued enough to look into the lady's organization (the "objectives" of which I would wholeheartedly support).  I was somewhat surprised to find that the staff had only a couple of scientists, and was made up of roughly 50% lawyers (I didn't count, it may be more).

The organization lost any credibility with me at that point.

Jamey

[Jim_Kennedy]

So does that help?
---

Nope.


 

Perfect George.

[Will MacEwen]

Maybe she isn't down with a $12 frankfurter.

Ask her if a hotdog is a sandwich.

[Garland Bayley]

So does that help?
---

Nope.


 

Disagree George,


Yup.