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Greg Holland

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The Old North State in NC
« on: July 12, 2002, 12:14:13 AM »
I know Fazio is not popular on this site, but have any of you played The Old North State at Uwharrie Point?  It is highly regarded in the state, many say it is the second best course in the state.  Any thoughts?

Also, Davis Love III designed a course in NC called Andersen Creek -- it was voted best new course in NC by a local panel, with claims that it was a traditional design like many of the classic Pinehurst courses.  True or media hype?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2002, 12:41:10 AM »
Old North State should have been named New North State.. ..more in keeping with the design, if you follow. It is dished-out, typically bunkered, very playable, but does not distinguish itself from other Fazio blueprints. The last three holes are beautiful, but lets stick with the architecture. Too many "catch basins". The course is overrated in my opinion. For those panels which rank modern designs against the classics, Old North State takes a tumble.

I have not played Anderson yet. Most actually do not like it , but that is a good sign.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

jim_lewis

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2002, 10:40:21 AM »
Greg:

I suspect you have seen a copy of the best-in-state rankings produced by an in-state panel for North Carolina Magazine. If so, I suggest that you destroy it. Once they got past the obvious #!, Pinehurst #2, they got little else right. I suspect that may be because all of the panelists are from NC and most are members of one or more of the courses they ranked.

They rank Old North State as the second best course is the state. It is not.  It is a pretty good course, if you don't mind crossing a street about a dozen times, and may deserve to be in NC's top 10, barely. Many consider their par 5 finishing hole to be outstanding. I consider it to be a poor imitation of #18 at Pebble Beach. Like so many courses being built on lakes, it is the obligatory finishing hole wrapped around the lake. How predictable can you get?

One think they did get right was their recognition of Anderson Creek.  I played the course soon after it openned and did not have high expectations. I expected to find a mediocre course with a big name touring pro's name attached to it. I was pleasantly surprised.  I do not know sho did most of the design work (and I don't really care), but I think Davis had considerable input.  He has said that he has a very high regard for Pinehurst #2, and you can see a lot of the Pinehurst look and feel at Anderson Creek, as well as several similar design features. I came away thinking that Davis and his team may turn out to be a very good design group. That opinion was reinforced when I played his (their) course at Barefoot Landing at Myrtle Beach.

Unfortunately, I think the Anderson Creek project is struggling financially. I spoke to a guy who played the course a week or so ago and he said their irrigation system is inadequate. Consequently, due to the lack of rain they have only been able to water greens and tees so the fairways are burnt out pretty badly. If you like them hard and fast, now may be a good time to go play the course. It is not great, but pretty darned good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2002, 12:02:37 PM »
I've also played Old North State, about 8 years ago, not too long after it opened.  I agree with Dunlop and Jim in their assessments.  I played 1.5 rounds in one day, and don't remember more than maybe 5-6 holes, it was so memorable.  ::)

I remember a couple par 3's built in the coves with the water behind the greens, basically out of play.  Why not put the water in play more, if it's there?  Because the homes get the prime spots.

Of the 3 "famous" finishing holes, I preferred #16 to the other two that were entirely on the lake.

They've played a few ACC Championships on ONS Club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2002, 12:30:02 PM »
Anderson Creek is a good golf course...sits very well into the natural terrain of the site.  The bunkers are visually great.  For instance...the second shot on the 18th par5 looks as if to guard the entire surrounding of the green but is a visual mirage.

Check out the Anderson Creek website.  HAs hole by hole shot photos.

http://www.andersoncreekgolf.com/main.html

I would have to say that its a must play if not for the great golf holes but for the greens fees...which are very nice.  I have not been there since last September and I am looking forward to playing there again maybe this August.

The DLIII design team has recently finished a redesign of the old island club at Saint Simons Island, GA.  The design is very exciting in the concepts of their greens complexes.  One of my favorite is the sideways biarritz green of #7 which is a driveable par 4 but with water guarding the right side of fwy and green.  The project was surrounded by existing homes but they did a good job of opening the course up w/o full home views while in fwy and putting interest back into the greens of SSI.  ie: a par three redan complex that is fun to play.

Davis is very involved with the design as is the entire design team of his brother Mark Love, Bob Spence, John Cowley, and John McKenzie, Scott Drader.  They are a small firm but want to work on limited numbers of projects so that they can give their full attention, which their philosophy is being in the field during the entire development of the project.

Another NC project about to be open or already open is The Preserve at Jordan Lake.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

J_McKenzie (Guest)

Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2002, 07:20:37 PM »
I thoroughly enjoy reading the wide variety posts found on this website.  I have never replied before, but I feel an obligation to do so now with the mention of Anderson Creek Golf Club and Davis Love III's golf course design company, Love Enterprises and Associates, Inc.  I must admit that since I am the Marketing Director for Love Enterprises, my opinions will tend to show a bias as far as Davis and/or any of our projects are concerned. ;)

Anderson Creek Golf Club is a daily-fee golf course located between Pinehurst and Fayetteville, N.C., in the town of Spring Lake.  The property is rolling sand hills, with more topography and wetlands than the typical course found in Pinehurst or Southern Pines.  It sits naturally on approximately 175 acres and required less than 400,000 cubic yards of dirt to be moved during construction.  Anderson Creek plays between 5,500 and 7,200 yards, Par 72 and has already been selected as a qualifying site for the Carolinas Open, U.S. Amateur and future U.S. Open.

Anderson Creek was designed to be traditional in style, with everything basically right there in front of you.  It features wide landing areas, strategic bunkering (not just for aesthetics), and greens complexes that reward accuracy and offer a variety of short game options.  It was designed not to copy Pinehurst #2, but certainly to pay hommage to Mr. Ross and to what is one of Davis' favorite courses.

Constructed for less than $3.5 million, we hope people will find Anderson Creek to be an affordable and enjoyable option when playing golf in the North Carolina Sand Hills.        

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Greg Holland

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2002, 07:47:08 PM »
Thanks J_Mckenzie.  I have not played Anderson Creek yet, but I drove by it -- the few green complexes I could see from the road looked excellent, with nice contours and bunkers.  Any news on further Love projects in NC?  In particular, rumor is that he will completely redesign Forest Oaks in Greensboro.  If so, any news or thoughts on how that course will be designed by DL3?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

J_McKenzie (Guest)

Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2002, 12:08:48 PM »
GregH:

Too early to comment on Forest Oaks, except to say we are excited about the opportunity if they decide to move forward.

The next DL3 course in North Carolina is scheduled to open within the next few weeks, in early August.  It is located between Chapel Hill and Cary just off Hwy. 64, east of Jordan Lake.  Developed by Bluegreen Golf, The Preserve at Jordan Lake is opening as a daily-fee golf course, although it is part of a residential community.  

The Preserve is vastly different from Anderson Creek, in that it plays through mature hardwoods, some rock outcroppings, and over and alongside wet and dry creekbeds.  A very environmental sensitive project and more severe elevation changes dictated more forced carries, but played from the correct tees, it should be a fun test of golf.  Bluegreen has also done a nice job of blending housing with golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2002, 01:12:14 PM »
J_McKenzie,

Could you comment a little on the retreat course on St. Simons?  I was looking forward to hearing all about the course once it reopened, but it seems like it has flown under the radar thus far.  Other than what I have seen on Sea Island's website and what RC mentioned above I have heard and read nothing.  I am just interested in hearing what the design is like and how DL3 and staff approached the project.

Thanks,

Keith.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

J_McKenzie (Guest)

Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2002, 06:10:56 PM »
Keith:

The design goal at The Retreat Course was fairly simple: increase playability and enjoyment by adding width in the fairways where possible and creating a lot of challenge and interest in the greens complexes.

The Retreat Course, formerly known as The Island Club, was originally designed by Joe Lee and constructed, I believe, in the 70's.  As was the case with many coastal courses built during this period, the constuction process consisted of digging a lagoon system to provide drainage and to create the dirt for shaping the course.  There was no subsurface drainage and the fairways were basically just crowned to surface-drain water either into residential lots or back into the closest lagoon.  This was also a time when golf corridors were fairly narrow, so by the time the houses were built, the golfer faced trying to hit a narrow, crowned fairway with OB on one side and water on the other.

The first thing Davis, Mark, and Paul Cowley (on-site design associate for this project) did was look at aerial photos and topo. maps to try to improve overall drainage patterns and look for areas to widen the course.  Roughly 40 acres were cleared to add width and length where possible and then substantial subsurface drainage was added which allowed the entire profile of the course to be lowered.  Many holes were phisically widened, while others became visually wider by reshaping the crowned fairway into a more concave fairway.

Although this project is referred to as a renovation, it is more aptly described as a complete redesign.  The only thing that really stayed the same are the houses surrounding the course.  Length was added, mostly to the tournament tees, and the strategy of the course is now completely different.  The greens are what really make the course.  They are low-profile with a variety of sizes (avg. of 6,500, but with the green at #6 being 14,000 sq. ft.) and shapes (redan green at #12, biarritz at #6).  The common theme within the greens is the Ross influence, with false fronts and runoffs into chipping areas that give a player many different short-game options.  Conservative bunkering throughout the course, but traditional in style with grass faces and flat sand bottoms.

Davis and Mark took advantage of being the third of Sea Island's three courses to be redone (Rees Jones at Plantation and Tom Fazio at Seaside) and paid attention to the comments made by members and resort guests.  They also kept in mind a design that would compliment what the other courses have to offer.  We are getting a lot of positive feedback since the reopening, which is a relief since The Retreat Course is right here in our own backyard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Greg Holland

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2002, 11:16:05 AM »
Back in July, J_McKenzie of Love Enterprises wrote:

"Too early to comment on Forest Oaks, except to say we are excited about the opportunity if they decide to move forward."

Now that the project is moving forward, can anyone comment on what Love Enterprises has planned at Forest Oaks.  Rumors here locally range from simple reworking of the greens to a complete redo.  I would love to hear anything you can tell us about DLIII's plans for this course -- the home of PGA tourney here in Greensboro.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

bakerg (Guest)

Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2002, 12:29:29 PM »
J McKenzie,

Does Love Enterprises have a website?  I am curious about Davis's portfolio of completed courses.  I enjoyed his course at Barefoot and would be interested in playing more of his courses, so if you have a site or simply a list that would be great.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Greg Holland

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2002, 01:18:28 PM »
DLIII's firm has designed at least the following:  the Retreat Course at Sea Island, GA; Barefoot Landing course at Myrtle Beach; Anderson Creek in NC sandhills; the Preserve at Jordan Lake near Raleigh, NC; and it recently signed on to redesign Forest Oaks in Greensboro, NC.  

Anderson Creek has its own website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Sponcia

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 10:17:23 AM »
I was trying to find pictures of Old North State and keep coming up with the last three holes. It's an option on the way to pinehurst in a month...but If Dunlop says it plays like a meal at Applebee's, I'm sure I'll regret it by the 2nd 1/2 mile drive to the next hole. 


Is Anderson Creek really that good?  The only DL3 course I've played is Barefoot in Myrtle and it is just ok.  Lots of false fronts, a few decent risk/reward holes, but probably 3rd best design on the 4 course complex.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

David_Madison

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 01:48:30 PM »
Old North State is pleasant enough with some nice holes on or in view of lakes, but the course has lost much of its bite and shot-making interest as over time the greens have shrunk into soft, boring ovals. Why not drive straight through to the Pinehurst/Southern Pines area and get in an extra round at Mid-Pines, Pine Needles, or the Royal and Ancient Southern Pines Golf Club? Or if you want to see something totally different while in transit, check out Tot Hill Farms.

Matt MacIver

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 06:26:22 PM »
Tot Hill came to my mind too, early Strantz with lots of fun shots and unique looks.  Just don't try to walk it. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 01:19:29 AM »
I have played ONS a half dozen times. I enjoy the course. It does have some very average holes but it also has enough very good holes to keep it interesting. The greens complexes have good bunkering, fall offs, and a fair amount of movement on the greens, and the last three holes are fun. The par five 18th is reachable in two even by old men like me. Have dinner on the patio and it is a nice day.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

AChao

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Re: The Old North State in NC
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 02:15:59 PM »
For people who aren't as lucky as many of us who have seen many great courses, I think ONS is a pleasant and relatively top tier club.  I enjoyed my day playing there even though there were a lot of players and it was slightly slow. 

That being said, I think if you've seen a lot of courses, Fazio fan or not, ONS doesn't move the needle as much as other Fazio or non-Fazio courses.