[Eric Smith]

By far, the most criticism of WP I've heard has been from Architects.  I know of a couple who were flat out not impressed, at all.

In my opinion this is the most interesting nugget found in this thread and worth a ponder. Think I'll make some nachos and re-watch the movie Tucker.

[Peter Pallotta]

By far, the most criticism of WP I've heard has been from Architects.  I know of a couple who were flat out not impressed, at all.

In my opinion this is the most interesting nugget found in this thread and worth a ponder. Think I'll make some nachos and re-watch the movie Tucker.

Jeff Bridges is the best actor of his generation, with Denzel Washington. His courtroom "what this country stands for" speech is  worth the price of admission.

[Ben Sims]

Wolf Point defies objectivity, which is neither a plus or a minus for the course. It exists for Al, and he's pretty fond of it. Those of us lucky enough to have substantial experience on the property look past individual qualities of golf holes and think on Carmen and her slow, methodical triplex technique, as well as her verde salsa. Maybe there's a quick visit with Al, sure to be funny in one way or another. Don will have a beer or two, and you're sure to join. Great shots, monster putts, armadillos, and humidity.

My favorite golf courses defy convention and offer personal, fun, option-filled experiences. There's a very small number of courses that can do that.

[Paul Carey]

I had the pleasure of spending two days at WP with the group in the Spring and if you can judge a set of greens by smiles and good laughs there are few places that match WP.  It was fun...as much fun as I've had on a set of greens and the fun factor was a function of both the design and the maintenance practices. 


Experience goes a long way at WP-like the Old Course and I bet Mr. Al is thought to beat at that place playing it every day. I was one of the guys that was at least 10 shots better the second day as I learned to tack my way around the courses and learned where to be on the approach and as importantly where not to be on the greens.

If someone doesn't enjoy WP I hope I never have to play with them.


Thanks Don and Mike and, of course, Mr. Al.

[Keith OHalloran]

Wolf Point defies objectivity, which is neither a plus or a minus for the course. It exists for Al, and he's pretty fond of it. Those of us lucky enough to have substantial experience on the property look past individual qualities of golf holes and think on Carmen and her slow, methodical triplex technique, as well as her verde salsa. Maybe there's a quick visit with Al, sure to be funny in one way or another. Don will have a beer or two, and you're sure to join. Great shots, monster putts, armadillos, and humidity.

My favorite golf courses defy convention and offer personal, fun, option-filled experiences. There's a very small number of courses that can do that.

Wa this several Haikus all strung together?

[Kalen Braley]

By far, the most criticism of WP I've heard has been from Architects.  I know of a couple who were flat out not impressed, at all.

In my opinion this is the most interesting nugget found in this thread and worth a ponder. Think I'll make some nachos and re-watch the movie Tucker.

Jeff Bridges is the best actor of his generation, with Denzel Washington. His courtroom "what this country stands for" speech is  worth the price of admission.

The Big Lebowski?  On the same playing field as Denzel?  Surely you jest Peter....

He's had a few good roles, but he's nowhere near Denzel's league...

[Josh Tarble]

Great profile of an incredibly unique course!  The thing about Wolf Point is that it really defies comparison with other golf courses.  I can hardly describe it when I talk about it and I'm sure I've never played a course that is as equally fun as it is frustrating.

If you love amazing greens and width and short grass, no course will compare.  If you love more traditional, defined course, Wolf Point won't compare.  I don't mean to be detrimental in the slightest, it's a fantastic course that I can hardly compare to anything I've played.

Maybe the closest I've played to it is Sweetens Cove, and I'm not sure even that comparison is great.  Just an amazing place.  Thanks Ran, Don and Mike for sharing it with us all.

[John Mayhugh]

Another fine course profile, Ran.  Thanks.  For me, those are the best thing a newcomer to the site could read.  I've often pointed non-GCA friends to a profile or so as a way to help explain what I like and why.

If someone needs an example of how crucial angles and wind can be in golf course design, there are few competitors to Wolf Point. 

[Don Mahaffey]

.... I'm sure I've never played a course that is as equally fun as it is frustrating....

being the oddball contrarian that I am, I think you nailed it with the comment about "frustrating" as I think that balance of fun and frustration is very important. I also think it is important that the frustration comes not from the golfer lacking power to hit the shots required, but from lack of either hitting the proper shot, or knowing WHAT the proper shot is in each case.  We wanted the golfer to play shots, not yardages and I think that is exactly what happens when you play WP, especially if it is firm with a little breeze.

The other thing that I think frustrates some players is even though the golf course is very wide, parts of the golf course I'll call "danger planes" are also very wide. You can hit the middle of certain greens but if your ball is coming in with the wrong flight and shape, the green will repel the ball, and there are no, none, nada, containment mounds, bunkers, long grass or any other feature designed to keep your ball out of trouble. There are no "keep you in the game" features at WP.  I don't know of any other course in the world, at least in the US, where there is zero effort to contain balls. When you don't add in those sorts of features, IMO, the fairways while wide, the greens while big, seem a little more hard to hit because your foul balls will get into the seats, and I think that is where some of the frustration, the good kind I think, enters into play. 

[Josh Tarble]

Don,

Thank you for responding in that fashion.  I did not think either you or Mike would take it as a slight, because I said that with complete admiration.  Most typically, a fun course is too easy and a frustrating course is too hard.  Wolf Point is the rare course that manages to be both at the same time.

[Kalen Braley]

While I've never been, ....but Perhaps the frustrating part is that it looks easy, with I'm assuming wide fairways and big greens.  And then when you walk away with double bogey, you are like WTF just happened there!! 

[BCowan]

Wolf Point's seem a little more ... ah ... antagonistic. Is this accurate?


... Looks interesting.

Jeff,
I haven't played with every visitor to WP, but I've spent time with almost every visitor from within the industry, be they architects, builders, consultants...etc...

By far, the most criticism of WP I've heard has been from Architects.  I know of a couple who were flat out not impressed, at all.
Your comments are not really negative, and believe me I'm fine with anyone not liking the course or thinking it's greens to be too severe, so no issue.  But WP is unique, I know the client is very pleased, and it wasn't built to anyone's industry standards (the most painful words in the business to my ears, and I keep hearing them more and more). So no issue with your words, just a comment about part of the business I don't understand.

edit: to clarify, what I believe is many in the golf design business don't really know what golfers want, or maybe better said, what golfers don't want.  Yes we know what the tour players want, what the scratch guys want, and what the USGA and PGA tour design guys want, but I'm not so sure that the golf world really knows what the rank and file golfers enjoy. Most industry experts would say that the greens at WP are too severe and golfers will not enjoy them, or the greens at some of the courses we've worked on are too severe, but when I get out and rub elbows with the everyday golfer, I hear a much different story.

to clarify, what I believe is many in the golf design business don't really know what golfers want, or maybe better said, what golfers don't want.  Yes we know what the tour players want, what the scratch guys want, and what the USGA and PGA tour design guys want, but I'm not so sure that the golf world really knows what the rank and file golfers enjoy. Most industry experts would say that the greens at WP are too severe and golfers will not enjoy them, or the greens at some of the courses we've worked on are too severe, but when I get out and rub elbows
with the everyday golfer, I hear a much different story.


Don,

    I haven't played WP, but I love this paragraph and this sentence ''many in the golf design business don't really know what golfers want, or maybe better said, what golfers don't want''.  It seems to apply to a lot of other areas of golf and the business imo.   

[Mike Sweeney]

On a Sunday morning read, WP looks and sounds fabulous.


In the delicate balance of Internet Access Police, this family stage of life, and other complexities, I have no real ability at this time to play/access this course if invited. However, I love this style of golf and when Ran says:


"The sooner golf world embraces the lessons espoused at Wolf Point, the better."

How can GCA.com do it?

The WP writeup reminds me of Ran's fictitious Carthage Club writeup - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/the-carthage-club/

Obviously WP is a private course in the very real tradition of it is owned by one person. It seems that the owner via Don and Mike is friendly and maybe there could be a way to create a "Friends of Wolf Point" where people from the "traditional" golf industry, Veterans, and maybe some other worthy causes could get to play and see the course.

When the owner dies and/or gets too old to play, the current model is probably not sustainable even at the reasonable $500,000 per year maintenance. Obviously, I don't know this man, his family, or personal situation, but the number of estate courses plowed under vs preserved leans heavily to plowed under.

I would personally be interested in being a contributor, and I would guess that "Golf's Most Beloved" can be a Trustee of sorts.

Again, not dictating, just trying to spark an idea.

[Tim Martin]

On a Sunday morning read, WP looks and sounds fabulous.


In the delicate balance of Internet Access Police, this family stage of life, and other complexities, I have no real ability at this time to play/access this course if invited. However, I love this style of golf and when Ran says:


"The sooner golf world embraces the lessons espoused at Wolf Point, the better."

How can GCA.com do it?

The WP writeup reminds me of Ran's fictitious Carthage Club writeup - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/the-carthage-club/

Obviously WP is a private course in the very real tradition of it is owned by one person. It seems that the owner via Don and Mike is friendly and maybe there could be a way to create a "Friends of Wolf Point" where people from the "traditional" golf industry, Veterans, and maybe some other worthy causes could get to play and see the course.

When the owner dies and/or gets too old to play, the current model is probably not sustainable even at the reasonable $500,000 per year maintenance. Obviously, I don't know this man, his family, or personal situation, but the number of estate courses plowed under vs preserved leans heavily to plowed under.

I would personally be interested in being a contributor, and I would guess that "Golf's Most Beloved" can be a Trustee of sorts.

Again, not dictating, just trying to spark an idea.

Is this a serious post?

[Keith OHalloran]

I just seems like a bad time for GCA to do this with the purchase of Dismal River on the horizon! 

[Mike Sweeney]

I just seems like a bad time for GCA to do this with the purchase of Dismal River on the horizon! 

Keith,



Not a purchase. I was thinking it could take inspiration from the Texas based Trinity Forest GC:


http://www.trinityforestgc.com/charities/


Tim Martin,


It seems that I have offended you. Feel free to send me a message or feel free to post here why. I have actually received a few messages off-line.


When I came back on GCA, I made a pledge to myself that I would only post relevant golf content and stay away from chat room style posting. I am sure I have slipped or will slip, but that is my goal.


Mike Sweeney

[Don Mahaffey]

Mike, please don't confuse the owner with letting a few players visit from time to time as anymore than you having someone over dinner and turning your house into a restaurant. Wolf Point is very private and there are no plans to change that nor is it proper to discuss any sort of succession plan here. 

[Tim Martin]

I just seems like a bad time for GCA to do this with the purchase of Dismal River on the horizon! 

Keith,



Not a purchase. I was thinking it could take inspiration from the Texas based Trinity Forest GC:


http://www.trinityforestgc.com/charities/


Tim Martin,


It seems that I have offended you. Feel free to send me a message or feel free to post here why. I have actually received a few messages off-line.


When I came back on GCA, I made a pledge to myself that I would only post relevant golf content and stay away from chat room style posting. I am sure I have slipped or will slip, but that is my goal.


Mike Sweeney

Far from offended by somewhat startled by the presumptuous nature of your post. The idea that you and or GCA would have some sort of role in the succession planning and or availability of the course seems more than a stretch and I think Don Mahaffey makes that quite clear in post # 41. Thanks.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, please don't confuse the owner with letting a few players visit from time to time as anymore than you having someone over dinner and turning your house into a restaurant. Wolf Point is very private and there are no plans to change that nor is it proper to discuss any sort of succession plan here.

Don,


Actually I am trying to do that in a different world. These land transitions are long complicated conversations.

I am trying to do something in the Autism community where my wife and I donate/sell/lease 55 acres of a 65 acre farm in Upstate NY to an Autism group and we would keep 10 acres for a family weekend house. Eventually our son would transition from our weekend house to living at the farm when we die/get old. It is an insanely complicated conversation, but we can’t afford to fund it for 60 years of overhead, but we can donate the property. Thus the thought about Wolf Point. Didn’t mean to put you on the spot, but golf needs to get away from money and WP seems like a cool place. See TPC yesterday for too much money.


Tim Martin,

As an Autism Dad I have to be presumptuous every day of my life to advocate for my son. Being from Philly helps!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Me, Joe, Ran & Don.

[John Cowden]

...with barely a whisper of a breeze.  Nice.

[George Pazin]

edit: to clarify, what I believe is many in the golf design business don't really know what golfers want, or maybe better said, what golfers don't want.  Yes we know what the tour players want, what the scratch guys want, and what the USGA and PGA tour design guys want, but I'm not so sure that the golf world really knows what the rank and file golfers enjoy. Most industry experts would say that the greens at WP are too severe and golfers will not enjoy them, or the greens at some of the courses we've worked on are too severe, but when I get out and rub elbows with the everyday golfer, I hear a much different story.

Maybe the single best post I've ever seen on here, in the 16+ years I've been posting. Speaks volumes about the state of the game and its stakeholders.


Can't believe I haven't made it down there yet. Life, in a thousand different (mostly wonderful) ways, has intervened. WP is the closest thing I've seen online (haven't seen much in real life) to how I envision golf to be played. I'd imagine feeling similarly about Sheep Ranch, and little else.


It's a constant reminder that I need to get my life in order. Thanks, Mike and Don, and thanks Ran for the glimpse and insights.

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