[Greg Gilson]

We recently joined Sanctuary Cove GC on Australia's Gold Coast. Its a nice club with great practice facilities so please do not start carrying on about me spending the rest of my life playing on a 80's era Arnold Palmer resort track ("The Pines")!

The Palms Course (a Ross Watson re-do) has a number of my least favorite architectural features (multiple & similar push up greens, bunker shapes that must drive the grounds staff mental etc) but the "highlight" is what I call the Jacknife hole. The par 3 6'th plays out on a pretty mundane little peninsula of land. After holing out you walk/cart straight back whence you came to the 7'th tee heading back in the opposite direction.

My recollection is that Dent Island (Hamilton Island) has the same thing going on (#15?).

What other examples are there around the world?

Is this laziness on the part of the design team?

Is there ever a reasonable excuse for this template?

[Carl Nichols]

The Links at Lighthouse Sound near Ocean City, MD (Arthur Hills) has one of these holes. I can't imagine it couldn't have been avoided.

[Tim Fitz]

Not exactly the same, but Olympia Fields North has a somewhat similar "walk back from whence you came" tee box issue with six and seven, which run parallel to each other.  Fortunately, unless the course is too crowded, there is a more efficient way to play OFCC North.

Six is a par three from an elevated tee box.  After holing out, you would normally expect to walk back up the hill to the elevated seventh tee box that sits next to the sixth.  But rather than walk up hill again, most folks typically tee off on six, then scoot over and tee off on seven, before walking up to hole their putts on six.  Thereafter, they walk off the back of the green on six and find themselves at roughly the start of the fairway on seven.

But for the manner in which I have always played the two holes, it would present the same problems as your "jackknife".

[Jason Topp]

You see this feature a lot on coastal sites where they want to get you to the coast but want to sell most of the coastal land for housing.  Cabo has a number of courses with this feature.  The Bay Course at Kapalua has one.  Kaanapali does as well. 

I agree it is bad golf course design but I suspect that such arrangements generate enough money in real estate sales to pay for the rest of the golf course.

[Pete_Pittock]

Template?
I know of one in Oregon, Mallard Creek in Lebanon. The 15th is a drop shot par 3, with the tee near the clubhouse (which was destroyed by fire last year). After play, you return to the clubhouse area and have a short (maybe driveable) par 4.
I was there on 9/11.

Tualatin used to have the 8th and 9th tees basically side by side but both played in the same direction.

[Tom_Doak]

The Jacknife is a good name for what's not really a template, but a weird routing trick. 


I've seen it several times on modern courses ... saw it just yesterday on a plan for an Arthur Hills course, actually.


The weirdest one I've seen is the par-3 12th [I think it's the 12th] at Royal New Kent.  The 13th tee is just behind the 11th green.  To get to the 12th, you go to the left into the woods, detour left 50 yards to get to the tee, hit your shot to the green and go putt out, reverse course, and come back through the woods to where you started.  And if you look at Google Earth today, you can see why they did it:  to surround that par-3 with housing.  Or, they might have had some hole nixed due to wetlands issues, and had to find space for an additional par-3 late in the planning process.

[James Bennett]

Greg Gilson

I am sure you will enjoy Sanctuary Cove, despite the architecture.

When I played the Palms, I recall the 16th having a terrible routing with a complete walk back (well, drive back) to the 17th tee.  I don't recall the 6th. (I also remember missing the turn through the tunnel from the 4th to 5th, or was it the 3rd to 4th.  It was easy to miss, and resulted in a very long drive up and back to find the path to the next tee).

Locally, my home club (Royal Adelaide has a partial jack-knife - it works reasonably well but does involve a walk-back.  the 6th green and 8th tee are quite close, but there is a 7th hole of some 150 metres close to 6th green, followed by a 100 metre plus walk-back to the 8th tee.  In Mackenzie's plan, 8 was to become a long 4 with the tee placed probably close to today's 12th tee - a better routing (12 would have stayed as a less-long par 3, perhaps from the ladies tee today).

As I said, it works reasonably well, despite the walk back.

The other Jacknife that often occurs is the temporary or 19th hole.  Kooyonga's 11A is an example, with a good hole running parallel to the 11th hole with adjacent tees.  Play the 170 metre par 3, then walk back the 170 metres to the 11th tee.  My club (Royal Adelaide) is building a 17A hole which is a short 3 of 125 metres (I think), with a tee near the 18th tee, playing away from the 18th and then involving a walkback of 125 metres.

I can accept jack-knifes on temporary holes, and can also accept a 120 metre jack-knife somewhere on a course, if the rest of the course is well routed and has short transitions (walkable) from green to tee.  I am less generous to jack-knifes that really require cart golf transfers.

James B

[Bill_McBride]

You see this feature a lot on coastal sites where they want to get you to the coast but want to sell most of the coastal land for housing.  Cabo has a number of courses with this feature.  The Bay Course at Kapalua has one.  Kaanapali does as well. 

I agree it is bad golf course design but I suspect that such arrangements generate enough money in real estate sales to pay for the rest of the golf course.

Mike Young designed a par 3 like this at Hacienda Pinella in Costa Rica.  As with your examples, the hole is a nice short par 3 with crashing surf in the background, followed by a backtrack to the next tee.   It's just a short hike back from a stunning par 3 so gets a pass.

[Jason Thurman]

So... we're all gonna pretend 7 at Streamsong Blue doesn't exist then?

[Bill_McBride]

So... we're all gonna pretend 7 at Streamsong Blue doesn't exist then?

But.....{gasp}...that's a Doak course.   

[James Bennett]

A Jack-knife for a decent hole is fine - having a jack-knife for a hole that most would be happy to skip is another.

Finding good holes is the first obligation, routing them well to minimise the green to tee distances comes second IMO.
The three jack-knifes I referred to are decent holes, as is Streamsong Blue 7.

James B

[mike_beene]

13 and 14 at Colonial in Ft Worth are an example. Re the Kapalua Bay example, that one has an old way across or under the street and does not have to backtrack like it does.

[jeffwarne]

The twp or twenty hole (#14)at Engineers is a "reverse jack knife".
You walk back to play the par 3-but because it's short the walk is no larger than many walks, and would be unnoticeable on most modern courses.
Only after you finish the hole do you realize the next tee(#15) is closer to the thirteenth green.

[David_Elvins]

Greg,


Good Post. It's a very jarring feature, especially if you are walking. 


James,


Same hole, what was the 16th is now the sixth, since they shifted clubhouses. 

[Greg Tallman]

You see this feature a lot on coastal sites where they want to get you to the coast but want to sell most of the coastal land for housing.  Cabo has a number of courses with this feature.  The Bay Course at Kapalua has one.  Kaanapali does as well. 

I agree it is bad golf course design but I suspect that such arrangements generate enough money in real estate sales to pay for the rest of the golf course.

Those in Cabo are at El Dorado and Palmilla.

[Tom_Doak]

So... we're all gonna pretend 7 at Streamsong Blue doesn't exist then?

Unless you wear a skirt and play from the forward tee, that hole doesn't fit the definition Greg offered.  Yes, it's a long walk to the next tee, but once you cross the bridge you go the other way ... #7 and #8 tees are 250 yards apart.  [And there is a green for the Red course in between them.]

[Steve Salmen]

The first ever USGA decision on the rules of golf had to do with this subject. Players would routinely tee off on #8 at Siwanoy. Then they would tee off on #9. Then they would play out on 8 and walk to the tee shots on 9. The USGA deemed this illegal.

[BCrosby]

Is that still a rules violation? The 12th and 13th at Capital City in Atlanta (Barker/Adair) were played similarly for almost a century, until the recent redo of the course.


You teed off on 12 (a downhill par 3), then walked a few yards ahead and teed off on 13 (a par 5). You played 12, exited the green to the left, and walked down the 13th fw to play your second shot on that hole. It worked beautifully.


Bob



 

[MCirba]

Really good thread and name.   Having played a number of these, (i.e. Lighthouse Sound, Royal New Kent), they are indeed a befuddling routing decision that are probably rationalized by the use of the cart.   In other words, most cart routings are so convoluted and disorienting in the first place that the architect probably figures, "what the heck, they won't even notice."   

[Pete_Pittock]

Is that still a rules violation? The 12th and 13th at Capital City in Atlanta (Barker/Adair) were played similarly for almost a century, until the recent redo of the course.


You teed off on 12 (a downhill par 3), then walked a few yards ahead and teed off on 13 (a par 5). You played 12, exited the green to the left, and walked down the 13th fw to play your second shot on that hole. It worked beautifully.


Bob,
A quick check of the Decisions book shows that it is still against the rules. Penalty is disqualification.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Funny enough, I realized that I have designed a true Jacknife hole.


It's the 7th at Barnbougle.


I have yet to hear anyone complain about that one.

[Carl Nichols]

Really good thread and name.   Having played a number of these, (i.e. Lighthouse Sound, Royal New Kent), they are indeed a befuddling routing decision that are probably rationalized by the use of the cart.   In other words, most cart routings are so convoluted and disorienting in the first place that the architect probably figures, "what the heck, they won't even notice."   

Or, in the case of Lighthouse Sound, they've decided to fully own it.  From their website:

"The course features the only consecutive holes in America playing to the same double green. The Par Five, 2nd playing 508 yards and the Par Three, 3rd 190 yards play to a 16,000 square foot green set along a tidal marsh of the Assawomen Bay."

I wonder why it's the only one!  The website also touts this fact:

"The Links at Lighthouse Sound opened in 2000 and is home of the longest cart bridge in the United States, stretching nearly 1,500 feet. This bridge will take you from the bay side holes across to the pristine marsh side."

[Tom_Doak]

Or, in the case of Lighthouse Sound, they've decided to fully own it.  From their website:

"The course features the only consecutive holes in America playing to the same double green. The Par Five, 2nd playing 508 yards and the Par Three, 3rd 190 yards play to a 16,000 square foot green set along a tidal marsh of the Assawomen Bay."

Better hurry up and trademark the Jacknife name, Greg.  Sounds like these guys are dying to use it!

[Kalen Braley]

The most egregious example I've seen is the 6/7/8 combo at Thanksgiving Point in Utah.

After you finish 6, you drive past the 8th tee to the 7th tee.  From there you hit a tee shot over the Jordan river to a green perched above a 90 degree bend of the river.  You then drive across the bridge and finish out the hole.  From there, you drive back over the bridge, past the 7th tee again and on to the 8th tee.  Its a very, very odd configuration, but given its a mandatory cart course, I guess it "works"! 

[JJShanley]

Inniscrone (Hanse; Avondale, PA 5 & 6) has something like this.
https://goo.gl/maps/F9nrJWocGfG2

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