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Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2016, 02:28:42 PM »
I don't disagree Sean.


Certainly the technique is not unique to Flynn . . . but I will say that his greens tend to look very benign when, indeed, his approach to intersecting slopes creates a pretty intense putting experience. 




MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2016, 08:25:59 PM »
You really need to know where to miss Flynn greens.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2016, 09:28:40 PM »
You really need to know where to miss Flynn greens.

I've perfected missing Flynn greens.   ;D
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 02:43:44 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2016, 09:37:09 AM »
And I don't want to ignore Green Valley (originally started as Marble Hall), another nice Flynn course:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/GreenValley/index.html
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 01:26:48 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2016, 01:15:21 PM »
The three high point concept was brought to my attention by Jim Nagle a few years ago.

As noted in Morrison and Paul's " The Nature Faker".

Bill
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2016, 01:35:55 PM »
I don't disagree Sean.


Certainly the technique is not unique to Flynn . . . but I will say that his greens tend to look very benign when, indeed, his approach to intersecting slopes creates a pretty intense putting experience.

At Springdale we still have 17 of 18 original Flynn greens and they exhibit the three pulled up points on the periphery. While smaller than those on many other Flynn courses, they have a lot of movement to them.  Visitors not used to old greens with a lot of break get downright befuddled, even if they aren't that fast.  They are really fascinating greens, small since the course is compact.

I agree that the difficult spots to read are when one is required to putt over intersecting breaks.

Our Pro Keith Stewart talks about the "Tower Effect" contending that they all break away from Cleveland Tower. However, I disagree and believe they break towards the brook - the lowest part of the course.

The greens display noticeable Bunker Splash buildup, despite what Mucci would contend.  I gather some of it was diminished during bunker work in the late 1980s, but we still have a ton. I really view Bunker Splash build up as classic "patina" that gives old courses their character.   Sand has been thrown out of the bunkers in the same place for over 88 years.

Growing up on Springdale's greeens, I will say that I feel comfortable reading greens on other Flynn designed courses, and have putted well at some courses even when I was not familiar with them.   Perhaps my perception is affected by my bias.

Bill

PS -   Bausch collection link to SGC Tour:  http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Springdale/index.html
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2016, 02:35:52 PM »
You really need to know where to miss Flynn greens.
+1   If you miss "the miss" you are not getting up and down.

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2016, 03:09:06 PM »
Short side = =  MORTE  !!
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2016, 03:43:42 PM »
And I don't want to ignore Green Valley (originally started as Marble Hall), another nice Flynn course:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GV/

Brinton Lake?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2016, 03:53:40 PM »
And I don't want to ignore Green Valley (originally started as Marble Hall), another nice Flynn course:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GV/

Brinton Lake?


Ahhh, yes, Ed.  And I need to update this nice photo album with a scorecard and hole diagrams:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Concord_2021/index.html
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 01:28:09 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2016, 04:07:44 PM »
The other thing that stands out to me about William Flynn's greens is how many of them are built mostly "at-grade", using the prevailing landforms and slopes with grace and subtlety.   It is rare to see a Flynn green propped up above the surrounding landscape as if some sentinel-guarded rampart to be breached. 

That leads to a naturalness of appearance and a deceptive amount of break from high to low points, simply because its all blended so well to surrounding terrain as to be largely invisible to the eye.   That to me is a big part of what the title "The Nature Faker" alludes to and describes so well.   His man-made features use sophisticated camouflaging techniques and create minimalist splendor where as little earth is moved as is necessary to create playable, yet challenging golf.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 04:12:27 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Michael Chadwick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2021, 01:09:00 PM »
Reviving this thread because I just saw my first 36 Flynn greens at Lancaster and Rolling Green. At the speeds they were presented (Lancaster's superintendent told me his were rolling at 12), I've never encountered more difficult green surfaces to read. The reason for this, to my eye at least, is because of Flynn's emphasis on converging slopes instead of noticeable contour and undulation.


For example, at Aronimink the Ross/Hanse greens bulge and sway like the surface of a roiling sea, with identifiable swelled mounds from which you can approximate the ball's line as it will roll across those waves of turf.


Flynn's greens, however, appeared as wide panes set at subtle tilt. The image that came to me was of drifting floes of glacial ice jostling against each other, each of their surfaces smooth and slick, but conjoined at different angles in their haphazard arrangements. For the most part, I knew which way the ball would roll, but was always left guessing as to where it would begin cascading in the direction of the prevailing slope. The putt's pace required that much more precision for the ball to get in proper alignment with the hole, to which I failed repeatedly.


Whereas I'd call the Ross greens I've seen at Aronimink and Oakland Hills South both challenging yet whimsical from their billowy shaping, Flynn's greens are staid and serious. The deceptive strength of their subtlety presents a stern test, which should come as no surprise, given that one of the early initiatives of the Philly School was to develop difficult courses to improve the pool of competitive players in Pennsylvania. More time on Flynn greens would certainly make me a better putter (if they didn't break me first).
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2021, 01:32:04 PM »
The converging slopes as previously described make finding the fall line a difficult proposition. Add that to greens running at 12 or thereabouts and game on.



MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2021, 03:12:56 PM »
Michael Chadwick;


Superb post, thanks!


That is all.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2021, 04:00:16 PM »
I've played Shinnecock, Rolling Green, and The Country Club (Merion too, if you count that as a Flynn, which I do as a co-design at this point) and I really think his green complexes are related to approach shots more than anyone I've played. The big wings and subtle slopes away from the player over bunkers are brilliant and really forces the player to play to the correct side of the dogleg depending on where the flag is. He doesn't built as notable greens as Mackenzie or Travis as a standalone feature, but more than hold up in the concept of a golf hole
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2021, 07:50:34 AM »
MC


Great description.  A one time national caliber amateur lamented that he didn't make it as a pro because he grew up putting on Flynn greens. His theory was that the breaks were so big even on shorter length putts that when it came time to putt on greens with modest slope, he couldn't stop playing for the bigger breaks expected based on his Flynn experience.


Dubious as this analysis is, it does say something about Flynn!

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2021, 08:53:57 AM »
Michael Chadwick brought a great curiosity to his round at RG and came away with a keen perspective. I always say “ slope not undulation” is my experience of Flynn greens.
AKA Mayday

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2021, 01:37:23 PM »
I just played Shinnecock over the weekend. Here are some photos of Flynn's greens for reference:




























mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2021, 02:33:15 PM »
Gee. Thanks Dan!!!


   I screwed up. I thought this was a response to my post on the “ missed connections “ topic where  I said I missed out on Shinnecock.


I would delete this.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 07:11:28 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2021, 02:46:17 PM »
The 2021 Western Am was hosted on a Flynn course.


At the "Sweet 16 Dinner" on Thursday night of the tourney, one of the best amateurs in the world was asked about the host golf course.


He replied that they were the hardest greens to read he has ever encountered.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2021, 04:01:25 PM »
I always thought the Shinnecock's Redan was a leftover CB McDonald green.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2021, 04:31:41 PM »
I always thought the Shinnecock's Redan was a leftover CB McDonald green.


That was an interesting topic on here long ago:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,13821.0.html

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2021, 09:39:59 PM »
A great thread worth re-reading.

I am still amazed how I usually putt well on various different Flynn courses and certainly feel comfortable on them.

Having said that, there is diversity to the greens in that they may have tiers, be sited on interesting angles and some are low profile while others are push up.

Most of our Springdale greens are push up style, though many start on a flat spot and push up as they rise to the back.  Often the particular site somewhat obscures this.   There is a small crest that runs across the property and three greens line up in row across a few hundred yards all starting at grade and elevating to the back.  Most players would not notice unless you spent a lot of time on the property. These are the current 1st, 3rd and 8th greens.  A fourth green, the par 3 11th is a little further on in the same row.

Seems to me the universal mistake on nearly all Flynn greens is be long. There are several at Springdale that long =  death.
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2021, 10:04:16 AM »
Gee. Thanks Dan!!!

I screwed up. I thought this was a response to my post on the “ missed connections “ topic where  I said I missed out on Shinnecock.


Haha ... I sort of wish I'd thought of that ...

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn Greens
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2021, 10:42:01 AM »
There is not much talk about them on this site but William Gordon’s greens are very similar to Flynn’s which should be no surprise as Gordon worked for Flynn for many years.  Gordon’s bunkers, however, are a different matter.  I have said many times, Gordon paid close attention to how Flynn designed his greens but missed most of Flynn’s bunker classes.  There is a distinct difference between the two architects when it came to bunkering.