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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Back in yee olde days putters were mainly blade like in design and had considerably more loft 😊


Atb

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yale is the antithesis of this philosophy. I always thought it had a few decent holes. ;)

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Max Behr's short strategic hole that could be played with only a putter...



Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Thomas and Jay make good points. Given the equipment of Mackenzie's time, he might really have been suggesting that any great hole should be playable even for a player who's only carrying a 1 iron in today's parlance.


Josh, no one is suggesting that there aren't good holes that could be played with only a putter. The 8th at Eagle Tee in West Chester, OH is a fantastic example of such a hole. But there are also plenty of great holes that take advantage of the fact that literally every golfer who plays them with a BAC below .22 will be carrying more than just a putter in the bag.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason, I agree courses would be pretty boring if we only used a putter and some of the best require more than a putter.  I thought it was interesting that at least one other ODG felt the need to mention you could play the hole with just a putter.   Must be parlance of ODG to express that a hole is great hole and any hack, or drunk in your example, can enjoy it.  Was the phrase used to draw in more players by claiming there is no excuse not to play the course because anyone, even with just a putter, can play here? 


I have not played Eagle Tee and based upon the webpage won't be driving from Columbus to test your theory on 8.   ;D

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Y'all aren't giving the Doctor nearly enough credit for his wisdom....


I don't think he ever quite meant it in that you're attributing it to him.

He did write (in "Golf Architecture”) the following.

Are there any ideal holes in existence at the present moment? (1920)
I think that the eleventh (the short hole coming in at St. Andrews) may be considered so. Under certain conditions it is extremely difficult for even the best player that ever breathed, especially if he is attempting to get a two, bu at the same time an inferior player may get a four if he plays his own game exceptionally well. It has been suggested that the mere fact that it is possible to putt the whole length is an objection to it. Not doubt the timid golfer can play the hole this way, but he will lose strokes by avoiding risks. Even if an expert putter holes out in four strokes once in three times he can consider himself lucky. I do not know of a solitary player achieving success in an important match by this means. If a cross bunker were constructed at this hole it would become appreciably diminished in interest in consequence. the narrow entrance and the subtle slopes all have the advantages of a cross bunker without making it impossible for the long handicap man. These contentions are borne out by those attempts that have been made to copy and improve the hole by a cross bunker.
The exact same passage appears in Spirit of St. Andrews, BTW.

Elsewhere in the same chapter he said in a different way, more like what's being suggested here, but I still think it's out of context, given the following:

I was traveling from San Francisco to New York with a man who is affectionately know as Billy Humphrey. He said, "
What sort of hole do you think your 16th at Cypress Point is? I don't think a hole is a golf hole that can be played with a putter." "on the contrary," I said, "I don't think an ideal hole is ideal unless it can be played with a putter, but we won't argue about that. What is your trouble?" He said, Well I was playing this hole against Herbert Fleishacker for two hundred dollars. [Herbert Fleishacker has the reputation of not being able to get a ball off the ground but he is full of brains, is a very good approacher and putter, an often outwits a more powerful opponent.] It was my honor and I put two shots in the ocean. Then old Herbert gets his putter, takes four putts to reach the green, wins the hole and two hundred dollars." I am afraid I was not unduly sympathetic.
I think a part I bolded in the first quote puts all this in perspective and that Adam is right. MacKenzie was using this as code, and was trying to make a sensible case against the proliferation of cross bunkers at the time.
I DO think he also made the point even better (again in the same chapter of Spirit):

Many people consider a complete island short hole a good one, but holes of this type can never be considered completely satisfying, as only one shot is required, namely the monotonous pitch.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 12:04:08 PM by Ken Moum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was traveling from San Francisco to New York with a man who is affectionately know as Billy Humphrey. He said, "
What sort of hole do you think your 16th at Cypress Point is? I don't think a hole is a golf hole that can be played with a putter." "on the contrary," I said, "I don't think an ideal hole is ideal unless it can be played with a putter, but we won't argue about that. What is your trouble?" He said, Well I was playing this hole against Herbert Fleishacker for two hundred dollars. [Herbert Fleishacker has the reputation of not being able to get a ball off the ground but he is full of brains, is a very good approacher and putter, an often outwits a more powerful opponent.] It was my honor and I put two shots in the ocean. Then old Herbert gets his putter, takes four putts to reach the green, wins the hole and two hundred dollars." I am afraid I was not unduly sympathetic.


Sounds like this guy blew it on his own.  If you knew your competitor couldn't get the ball airborne, even for an easy carry to the Isthmus of Moriarity, then why would he go for the green twice?   He could have easily hit 8 iron and wedge and be on in 2 for the guaranteed win.

Never underestimate the power and irrationality of the male ego!  ;D

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0

Sounds like this guy blew it on his own.  If you knew your competitor couldn't get the ball airborne, even for an easy carry to the Isthmus of Moriarity, then why would he go for the green twice?   He could have easily hit 8 iron and wedge and be on in 2 for the guaranteed win.

Never underestimate the power and irrationality of the male ego!  ;D


'Tis ever the case.


I was a walking scorer for the NCAA Women's Central Regional in 2014, and one of the things I really noticed was how little ego the better players had regarding club selection, especially on par threes.


On one of particular note, a woman who was nearly six feet tall, and easily capable of 260-270 yard tee shots.


On a 165-yard hole she pulled a three hybrid and knocked it on the green. Not ONE of the guys I know would hit that much club, and none of them have a clubhead speed she did.


I've tried mightily to take that lesson to heart, but it's really hard to not act like a fool.  My brother, who has to give me almost a shot a hole, gives me hell all the time about leaving my approaches short.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
of course you cant play augusta national or TOC with just a putter due to the water hazards....

Its nonsense and any hole or course built with this premise is foolish.  Then again, we are in an internet forum full of partially read double digit handicaps that think they've got it all figured out.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
of course you cant play augusta national or TOC with just a putter due to the water hazards....

Its nonsense and any hole or course built with this premise is foolish.  Then again, we are in an internet forum full of partially read double digit handicaps that think they've got it all figured out.

So, you've figured out that we don't have it all figured out?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Matt Hunter is a lunatic, then.  He's parred 4 at Hollywood, 5 at Dismal River, 7 at Streamsong, and 9 at Glens Falls with a putter. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak