Raleigh-Durham

[Sean_A]

I am hoping to play one game while in the area this August.  Despite many visits to the area, I don't really have a handle on what are the superior courses.  I played Duke, Governors Club, Raleigh CC & Lonnie Poole. Except for Duke, I wouldn't mind playing any of these again...though none were close to outstanding, but Governors was a pleasant suprise. 

From what I can gather the courses below seem to be ones to see.  Are any a cut above the rest or are any really not courses people think I would appreciate?  I am leaning toward trying to play Hope Valley, but for no particular reason other than its a Ross. 

Eagle Ridge
Finley
Hope Valley
Treyburn
Old Chatham
TPC Wakefield

Thanks & Ciao

[hhuffines]

We don't have any superior courses here.  For those you either drive south or west...

[David_Madison]

Sean - Your instincts are right... play Hope Valley if you want to see something decent in this area.


But if you want to play Mid-Pines (where I'm now a member) I'll be happy to spend the day and get you back and forth. If you haven't seen it since the renovation/restoration, you need to. So much better than anything around here and an absolute joy to play.

[Greg Gilson]

Drive down the road... the Tobacco Road.

I have played Old Chatham. Couse was "fine". Great member service standards...if you go for that sort of thing.

[BCowan]

S,

No brainer, Hope Valley. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sean, Treyburn is a very good Fazio. It has interesting elevation changes and excellent greens. i enjoy it immensely. Old Chatham is a nice Rees Jones layout. I enjoyed my round there a lot. Wakefield is Hale Irwin. I played it the year it opened so my memory is dimmed. My impression was that I didn't need to return.

[A.G._Crockett]

I am hoping to play one game while in the area this August.  Despite many visits to the area, I don't really have a handle on what are the superior courses.  I played Duke, Governors Club, Raleigh CC & Lonnie Poole. Except for Duke, I wouldn't mind playing any of these again...though none were close to outstanding, but Governors was a pleasant suprise. 

From what I can gather the courses below seem to be ones to see.  Are any a cut above the rest or are any really not courses people think I would appreciate?  I am leaning toward trying to play Hope Valley, but for no particular reason other than its a Ross. 

Eagle Ridge
Finley
Hope Valley
Treyburn
Old Chatham
TPC Wakefield

Thanks & Ciao

Sean,
Hope Valley is the clear choice of the options that you have listed here, especially if you haven't seen it.  Original Ross routing in wonderful condition, and nothing not to like about it.

[A.G._Crockett]

Sean - Your instincts are right... play Hope Valley if you want to see something decent in this area.


But if you want to play Mid-Pines (where I'm now a member) I'll be happy to spend the day and get you back and forth. If you haven't seen it since the renovation/restoration, you need to. So much better than anything around here and an absolute joy to play.

David,
Not to threadjack, but I moved back to Durham in Sept. after 35 years gone, and am playing a lot of golf with Terry Heath at Finley.  He says that you and I are the only people that he's met that prefer the old layout to the new one.  He especially likes the 10th hole, which I still consider to be a screwed-up version of the old 7th.  Good player and a good guy who loves golf courses.

[Sean_A]

All


Thanks for the input. 


David...thanks for the kind invite.  I would like to take you up on the offer, but I already have enough windshield time for this trip.  Maybe next time?  I have a lot of time for Mid Pines and would like to play it again.  Do you play at all with Jay?


Are you still at Governor's?  How bout the Canes...do you still follow them?


Ciao 

[Jeff Shelman]

I haven't played everything on the list, but my list would go Hope Valley, Old Chatham, Treyburn.


Hope Valley is pretty cool. Old Chatham is decent and it's easy to get to the airport from there.

[Greg Gilson]

Out of interest, is it easy to just "get a game" at Old Chatham? My host made it sound quite a production that he was arranging my round there.  Access issues may not be issues for Sean but it seems strange after my experience that it "access" never even came up in the discussion?

[A.G._Crockett]

Out of interest, is it easy to just "get a game" at Old Chatham? My host made it sound quite a production that he was arranging my round there.  Access issues may not be issues for Sean but it seems strange after my experience that it "access" never even came up in the discussion?

At the very least, the membership at Old Chatham is very small, so guest play is limited by that.  I don't know how willing they might be to allow outside play arranged by another club, but given the origins of the club, I'd be surprised if it wasn't well toward the difficult end of the spectrum for access.

[Sean_A]

Out of interest, is it easy to just "get a game" at Old Chatham? My host made it sound quite a production that he was arranging my round there.  Access issues may not be issues for Sean but it seems strange after my experience that it "access" never even came up in the discussion?

Greg


I didn't enquire about access because I don't expect access to be an issue.  Clubs either allow me to play or not.  I have no problem with that, but I usually try for the courses I want to play even if the access odds are poor. 


Ciao 

[Andrew Buck]

Admitting I've never played Hope Valley, and acknowledging I really enjoy Donald Ross courses, I don't get very excited about the prospect of playing a course where the majority of the holes seem to play between housing corridors.  Granted, it appears there is ample room and it's well done, but since Ross courses in general seem more plentiful and accessible than some of the other great designers, I'd have a hard time picking Hope Valley based on aerials alone. 

[Joe Sponcia]

Sean

Old Chatham is boring.  Lots of elevated tees to lower fairways and par 3's.  Not a fun walk.  Several holes are typical Jones penal school.  Greens are great and so is the locker room.

Raleigh is in massive need of tree removal.  Routing is so so.  Still shocked their was a 'restoration" without opening up fairway lines.  Practice facility is a dream.

I'd drive to Tobacco Road

[A.G._Crockett]

Admitting I've never played Hope Valley, and acknowledging I really enjoy Donald Ross courses, I don't get very excited about the prospect of playing a course where the majority of the holes seem to play between housing corridors.  Granted, it appears there is ample room and it's well done, but since Ross courses in general seem more plentiful and accessible than some of the other great designers, I'd have a hard time picking Hope Valley based on aerials alone.

Andrew,
If you or anyone else opted NOT to play Hope Valley because of housing, it would be a mistake of the first magnitude, IMO.  There is width on every tee shot on the course; it is vintage Ross in that regard.  The homes are set far back from the golf course, and don't intrude at all on the scenery, much less play.

HVCC follows the original Ross routing, with great restoration/renovation work being done by Brian Silva, and it stays in near perfect condition.  It's the best course in the Durham area hands down, and at least the equal of any course in the Triangle area.

[Andrew Buck]

Admitting I've never played Hope Valley, and acknowledging I really enjoy Donald Ross courses, I don't get very excited about the prospect of playing a course where the majority of the holes seem to play between housing corridors.  Granted, it appears there is ample room and it's well done, but since Ross courses in general seem more plentiful and accessible than some of the other great designers, I'd have a hard time picking Hope Valley based on aerials alone.

Andrew,
If you or anyone else opted NOT to play Hope Valley because of housing, it would be a mistake of the first magnitude, IMO.  There is width on every tee shot on the course; it is vintage Ross in that regard.  The homes are set far back from the golf course, and don't intrude at all on the scenery, much less play.

HVCC follows the original Ross routing, with great restoration/renovation work being done by Brian Silva, and it stays in near perfect condition.  It's the best course in the Durham area hands down, and at least the equal of any course in the Triangle area.

Thanks for the additional feedback.  We are contemplating a round in the triangle on getaway day on our Pinehurst trip in late June, and I had pretty much eliminated HVCC based on the aerial routing, as I feared the entire course would play like 15 - 17 at Pine Needles. 

I may have to give it another thought, as Brian Silva's restoration work is always impressive. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Andrew: I would suggest that you consider Chapel Ridge as a get away course - usually around $35 and easy drive to the airport.  Course has plenty of width, well done routing considering the sometimes severe topography, many risk/reward options with 2 driveable par 4s, really solid and great variety in par 3s (No simple drop shots).  Conditioning is usually good although it is a public course so greens aren't going to be lightning fast.

[A.G._Crockett]

Andrew: I would suggest that you consider Chapel Ridge as a get away course - usually around $35 and easy drive to the airport.  Course has plenty of width, well done routing considering the sometimes severe topography, many risk/reward options with 2 driveable par 4s, really solid and great variety in par 3s (No simple drop shots).  Conditioning is usually good although it is a public course so greens aren't going to be lightning fast.

Jerry,
This is a good call; I love Chapel Ridge.  Great value. 

[Sean_A]

Joe

Tobacco Road is always enticing....but if history is anything to go by....the course will be wet in August due to heavy watering....no thanks.

Anyone

Is Silva's work ongoing at Hope Valley?

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Joe


Tobacco Road is always enticing....but if history is anything to go by....the course will be wet in August due to heavy watering....no thanks.


Anyone


Is Silva's work ongoing at Hope Valley?


Ciao

No; Silva's work was several years ago, and there is probably a thread about it here somewhere.  It's long-since complete.

Over the years, a number of things had been done to the course; bunkers added and subtracted, etc.  I think Dan Maples worked on the course at some point many years ago, and in another project supervised by John Lafoy, HVCC had regrassed the fairways from common bermuda to a hybrid version.  FWIW, the club website says that Perry Maxwell also worked on the course at some point, but that was a bit before my time!  But none of those gentlemen had altered the routing of the course, which is original Ross.

Silva's project was a full-on restoration AND renovation; he restored the bunkers to the original versions, as well as improving the drainage of the fairways.  As an example of the bunker work, a Greens Committee chair was reportedly responsible for a bunker being added many years ago on the left side of #4 to catch his hook before it went in the trees; that bunker is gone now.  Silva also converted the greens to Champion Bermuda, and in addition to restoring the original sizes of the greens, modified the contours to suit that grass and green speed.  I think the membership is overwhelmingly happy with Silva's work.

I played there last Saturday; the course is in wonderful condition overall, especially for this early in the growing season, and the greens are just perfect.  I doubt that there are more than a handful of Ross courses in which Ross was more involved than he was at HVCC in 1926.  It is also one of the courses on which Nelson won one of his 11 straight in 1945 (the Durham Open), so there is some pretty good history involved with the course.  There is also a story about Hogan taking the club to task for piping a creek that ran down the right side of #11, a hole that Nelson had supposedly put on his list of his favorite 18 from his win streak; I have no idea if any of that is true.  (The creek, btw, remains piped; that was something that Silva wasn't able to do, and probably best for flood control anyway.)

[Andrew Buck]

Thanks for the heads up on Chapel Ridge Jerry, and thanks for all the info on Hope Valley A.G.

Chapel Ridge looks intriguing, however since my dad is a long-time superintendent, who places green conditioning at the top of his list, and we have ample time with a 6:00 PM flight, we'll likely either play in the Pinehurst area, or one of the other mentioned clubs.  Part of the intrigue of playing in the Chapel Hill or Durham area is it allows one of our friends, a basketball nut, to also see the Dean Dome or Cameron Indoor during the trip. 

I must say, A.G. is a great ambassador for Hope Valley.  The more he types, the more intriguing the venue sounds.   

[Carl Rogers]

I will pick you up and drive to Riverfront, early Doak, in Suffolk, VA.  4 hour trip.

[Jerry Kluger]

Andrew - I didn't mean to imply that the greens at Chapel Ridge were going to be bad and more often than not they have been really good. Just that it is a public venue and they don't have the budget of privates.  To me, green speeds is way over hyped and has caused some really good courses to sacrifice green quality to keep up with member demands so they can brag how fast their greens are.

[A.G._Crockett]

Sean

Old Chatham is boring.  Lots of elevated tees to lower fairways and par 3's.  Not a fun walk.  Several holes are typical Jones penal school.  Greens are great and so is the locker room.

Raleigh is in massive need of tree removal.  Routing is so so.  Still shocked their was a 'restoration" without opening up fairway lines.  Practice facility is a dream.

I'd drive to Tobacco Road

Joe,
We'll have to agree to disagree about Raleigh CC; I loved it and certainly didn't see anything to dislike about the routing.  As to the trees, I wouldn't be surprised if there were severe limitations from the city on what can and cannot be done on a property like that.  I don't know that, but it would be interesting to find out, and in any case I didn't find the trees to be intrusive or restrictive.