Iowa/Minnesota/Wisconsin in Confidential Guide Vol. 3

[Buck Wolter]

This got posted on the Last Ten and as a Minnesota Hostage and Native Iowegian I felt like it deserved its own thread.

I only played one of these courses - Harvester - due to chilly windy weather across the midwest, and that was the windiest and coldest day of the bunch.  But here's what I saw for Volume 3 on my most recent trip:


Rochester G & CC, Minnesota
Sand Valley
Lawsonia
Davenport CC, Iowa
TPC at Deere Run
Spirit Hollow
Amana Colonies
Cedar Rapids CC
Harvester
Veenker Memorial GC
Waveland
Des Moines G & CC
Wakonda
Ballyneal


Bet you can't guess correctly which two will appear in the Gourmet's Choice section.

Let the guessing begin.

Mine were Rochester CC and Wakonda

[PCCraig]

Buck,


I think my guess was Rochester and Waveland.


More obvious choices would be maybe Lawsonia and Ballyneal?

[J_ Crisham]

Pat and Buck,
        Have either of you seen/played Davenport or Cedar Rapids pre or post restoration? I played Cedar Rapids during the work- it's very impressive work by Prichard. Ive played all but Rochester, Veekland and Sand Valley on the list with Lawsonia being my favorite. Wakonda could be so much more than it is IMO.

[Criss Titschinger]

Caveat: I've never played any of these courses. I haven't stepped foot in Iowa since about 1992. Just read and see pictures/aerials.

The obvious choices are if you think Tom's being funny, which are Ballyneal and Lawsonia.

The other choices would be to take him at his word, and he doesn't really think we can name these; in which case, I'm going with Cedar Rapids CC and Waveland.

[Tom_Doak]

I will try to check back every so often to see if anyone names the correct two.


Understanding the rules for inclusion in The Gourmet's Choice might help:  for each volume of the book, I choose 18 courses by 18 different architects.  So, as an example, Ballyneal would only be in if that was the one course of mine I wanted to feature in this volume.  [Actually, Ran is writing up the course of mine that will be featured.]

[Phil McDade]

I'm guessing one of them is Davenport CC, an old Alison on some great terrain that just underwent a restoration by Ron Forse and Jim Nagle. (Given Tom's Renaissance work at Milwaukee CC, a similar Midwest Alison on some solid terrain that I know he admires....)

[Andrew Buck]

Wakonda and Lawsonia both have bold features, but pretty different current formations of Langford work.  Well, I'm assuming, as I haven't seen Wakonda since AJGA/Drake Relays days in the 90's, so maybe they've cleared trees. 

[Buck Wolter]

Pat and Buck,
        Have either of you seen/played Davenport or Cedar Rapids pre or post restoration? I played Cedar Rapids during the work- it's very impressive work by Prichard. Ive played all but Rochester, Veekland and Sand Valley on the list with Lawsonia being my favorite. Wakonda could be so much more than it is IMO.

I've played or walked these from the list:
Amana Colonies
Harvester
Veenker Memorial GC
Waveland
Des Moines G & CC
Wakonda

I think Harvester is a terrific modern course (I'm a big Foster Fan). When I caddied @ Wakonda for a friend in US open qualifying ~1988 it was the nicest place I had ever been --I don't remember much about the course but wasn't  super-impressed watching on TV when the Seniors played especially that Valhalla like green. I probably have more rounds on Waveland than any other course and such good memories I could never be objective but think it has outstanding bones, the guy I caddied for lived above the pro shop and taught me to play golf during my first job out of College.  Veenker has been hurt by being chopped up due to roads being added, if I ever hit it big I'm donating a resto to my Alma Mater.

Hoping to get to Rochester sometime this year if I possible --it's only about 45 min from where I work and I have to get to Lawsonia --seems like I'm always in a hurry when I'm in the area.

Buck

Looking at Tom's Comments reminding us of the rules -- I'm guessing Rochester(other Tllie designs likely) and Wakonda (Langford but not as good as Lawsonia) are out --Lawsonia is in  and I'll say Harvester for Foster. Still hoping for Waveland but think there would be other Bendelow courses (I think) that would get the nod.

[Pete_Pittock]

I didn't know Ballyneal got moved to IA, MN, or WI.

I'd pick Lawsonia, haven't played much in the area to guess the other.

[J_ Crisham]

Now that the rules are explained: Harvester and Davenport CC are my choices

[PCCraig]

Pat and Buck,
        Have either of you seen/played Davenport or Cedar Rapids pre or post restoration? I played Cedar Rapids during the work- it's very impressive work by Prichard. Ive played all but Rochester, Veekland and Sand Valley on the list with Lawsonia being my favorite. Wakonda could be so much more than it is IMO.

J Crisham,


I have not played either. I've seen pictures of Cedar Rapids and Prichards (?) work there and it looks neat. I've driven through town there a few times going back and forth from St. Louis, but have never stopped. Had not heard much about Davenport, but just googled it up and it looks neat.


But according to Tom Doak's qualifications, I find it hard that Cedar Rapids will be considered the best Ross in the Midwest, and Davenport will be ranked higher than Milwaukee (Allison).

[Buck Wolter]

I didn't know Ballyneal got moved to IA, MN, or WI.

I thought it would have been rude to edit Tom's post but what  is left to be said there? I also left Illinois out.

[Phil McDade]

But according to Tom Doak's qualifications, I find it hard that Cedar Rapids will be considered the best Ross in the Midwest, and Davenport will be ranked higher than Milwaukee (Allison).

Pat:


I wrote my observation on Davenport right when Tom was posting his criteria for the Gourmet's Choice, so I didn't see it before I posted. If Davenport is a better Alison than Milwaukee, then it's probably a contender for best hidden gem in the country. No one I know talks about Davenport -- and although I haven't seen it nor played Davenport (I knew about its Alison connection when researching him for the Milwaukee CC photo thread I posted several years ago here, and friends who have played it say it's under-rated), Milwaukee CC is really, really good. From all reports, it's maybe along with Kirtland the best Alison in the country. I've long thought Milwaukee CC best in state here, and well-traveled folks like Jack Crisham speak very highly of it. I'd be surprised if Davenport even post-restoration can hold up with it.

[J_ Crisham]

But according to Tom Doak's qualifications, I find it hard that Cedar Rapids will be considered the best Ross in the Midwest, and Davenport will be ranked higher than Milwaukee (Allison).

Pat:


I wrote my observation on Davenport right when Tom was posting his criteria for the Gourmet's Choice, so I didn't see it before I posted. If Davenport is a better Alison than Milwaukee, then it's probably a contender for best hidden gem in the country. No one I know talks about Davenport -- and although I haven't seen it nor played Davenport (I knew about its Alison connection when researching him for the Milwaukee CC photo thread I posted several years ago here, and friends who have played it say it's under-rated), Milwaukee CC is really, really good. From all reports, it's maybe along with Kirtland the best Alison in the country. I've long thought Milwaukee CC best in state here, and well-traveled folks like Jack Crisham speak very highly of it. I'd be surprised if Davenport even post-restoration can hold up with it.

Phil,    I have a great affinity for Milwaukee CC, in fact it is in my top 50 courses that I've played world wide. It flows effortlessly across a terrific piece of property. I especially enjoy the stretch of 9-16. Davenport is one hell of  a sleeper- it doesn't have the extremely private mystique of MCC but it did hold a memorable Western Open many years ago. Cedar Rapids CC really surprised me when I saw it in the infancy of its restoration by Prichard- in fact I am headed back next month- I think so many of these classic courses that are being lovingly restored will be eye openers. Think Old Town, Old Elm, and Philly Cricket. Courses which were at one time considered good but are now really really good.

[Tom_Doak]

When did Davenport CC host the Western Open?


Notes:  Where did I say Ballyneal was in IA/MN/WI?  It was in my post about the last ten courses I'd seen, and that post was quoted at the top of this thread.


Also, the Gourmet's Choice does not always contain what I think is the best course by a certain architect.  In many cases, those courses are already well known and there is not much new to write about them.  Personally, I'm more likely to write something about a course that's flown under the radar, though not all of my co-authors fall into that camp.  And I've got some desire to spread things out geographically and to avoid just picking a bunch of courses where we consult ... we consult at Milwaukee C.C., and that wound up being good news for Davenport C.C.


Anyway, no point continuing this guessing game.  Here's the full lineup for the Gourmet's Choice, vol. 3:


Banff Springs - Stanley Thompson [Masa]
Cabot Links - Rod Whitman
Crystal Downs - Alister MacKenzie and Perry Maxwell


Davenport CC - C. H. Alison
Fowlers Mill - Pete Dye [Ran]
Gamble Sands - David Kidd


Garden City Golf Club - Devereux Emmet / Walter Travis
Hooper GC - Wayne Stiles
Lawsonia Links - William Langford and Theodore Moreau


Merion (East) - Hugh Wilson  [Masa]
Myopia Hunt C - Herbert Leeds  [Darius]
Oakmont - William and Henry Fownes


Roaring Gap - Donald Ross  [Ran]
Rock Creek - Tom Doak  [Ran]
Sand Hills - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw


Shinnecock Hills - William Flynn  [Masa]
Somerset Hills - A. W. Tillinghast  [Darius]
The Course at Yale - C. B. Macdonald and Seth Raynor

[Pete_Pittock]

Tom,
I know, and knew. It just wouldn't be a "correct answer" according to the thread title, and I am apt to point out things like that. 

[J_ Crisham]

When did Davenport CC host the Western Open?


Notes:  Where did I say Ballyneal was in IA/MN/WI?  It was in my post about the last ten courses I'd seen, and that post was quoted at the top of this thread.


Also, the Gourmet's Choice does not always contain what I think is the best course by a certain architect.  In many cases, those courses are already well known and there is not much new to write about them.  Personally, I'm more likely to write something about a course that's flown under the radar, though not all of my co-authors fall into that camp.  And I've got some desire to spread things out geographically and to avoid just picking a bunch of courses where we consult ... we consult at Milwaukee C.C., and that wound up being good news for Davenport C.C.


Anyway, no point continuing this guessing game.  Here's the full lineup for the Gourmet's Choice, vol. 3:


Banff Springs - Stanley Thompson [Masa]
Cabot Links - Rod Whitman
Crystal Downs - Alister MacKenzie and Perry Maxwell


Davenport CC - C. H. Alison
Fowlers Mill - Pete Dye [Ran]
Gamble Sands - David Kidd


Garden City Golf Club - Devereux Emmet / Walter Travis
Hooper GC - Wayne Stiles
Lawsonia Links - William Langford and Theodore Moreau


Merion (East) - Hugh Wilson  [Masa]
Myopia Hunt C - Herbert Leeds  [Darius]
Oakmont - William and Henry Fownes


Roaring Gap - Donald Ross  [Ran]
Rock Creek - Tom Doak  [Ran]
Sand Hills - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw


Shinnecock Hills - William Flynn  [Masa]
Somerset Hills - A. W. Tillinghast  [Darius]
The Course at Yale - C. B. Macdonald and Seth Raynor

Tom,
    Davenport CC hosted The Western Open twice. In 1936 and again in 1951. As you know it was considered to be the 5th Major back then. Sam Snead should have won in 1951 but found the water on #16 to lose the lead. I recall reading that story on a plaque at Davenport CC. Also, this was the first golf tournament to be televised. George Fazio shot 63 in the 1951 Western Open to beat Gene Sarazen's previous course record of 64. Davenport CC does have an interesting past. Its a very special place.

[PCCraig]

Tom Doak,


That's a great list. And one that I can't wait to read the different reviews/views of!


If Davenport is even close to as good as Milwaukee CC, then it's certainly worth a trip south one of these days to try to see it. Can you share a few of the features, or holes, that you really enjoyed? Just curious.


Also, I'm kind of surprised that White Bear didn't make your Gourmet Choice. Either as a Ross or an "other." But maybe White Bear isn't flying under the radar anymore?

[Jason Topp]

I am thrilled that my childhood course, Waveland, is on the list but see a 3 at best in its future.  A horrendous green rebuild in the 50's and 60's, fairway lines that now put the best approach spots in the rough and many trees that need removal turn the bones of a very good course into one that, despite my fondness, that will not hold up well in the Doak Scale.

Despite its shortcomings, Waveland is a magic place with giant hills, huge trees and very unique fairways that are hilly but often have flat spots lopped off in the fairways that create "garden spots" for your approach shots.  It is a very crude and very effective way to create some very interesting shot choices.    Unfortunately, some of those spots are now in the rough and behind trees. 

[Jud_T]

Does this mean Lawsonia finally garners a 7? 

[Howard Riefs]

Tom,


Very nice list. Two questions...


1) Yale over NGLA or Chicago Golf?
2) Did you finally play Oakmont? 

[Buck Wolter]

Davenport CC looks to be 2.5 hours from Downtown Chicago --if I lived there I would be checking into an out-of-area membership before this info becomes widespread.

Hooper has to be the most affordable  course on the US Gourmet List --$280 if you are a member elsewhere?!?

The Hooper Golf Course will open for the 2016 season. We are sending out membership information. Membership rates are as follows.

Single - $550.00

Couple - $950.00

Family - $1050.00

Limited weekday - $400.00

young executive 26 to 32 - $350.00

Junior (to age 25) - $150.00

1/2 year - $280.00

Something new this year!! If one is a member of another golf course then you can join Hooper Golf Course for $275.00 with proof of membership at another course.

[Tom_Doak]

Now that the book is off to the printer [hopefully ready for shipment about the first of October, although it might have to wait until I'm back from a big trip], I have time to answer a few questions I left hanging here.


PCraig:  We strongly considered putting White Bear Yacht Club in the front of the book.  Darius was going to write it up -- I had recommended he see it even though it wasn't in any of the rankings that he was following on his US Tour.  However the dispute over who designed the course [and plenty of others to represent the Great Lakes region] conspired to keep it out.  If it is a Donald Ross course, there were just too many other candidates ahead of it. 


Jud:  You'll be pleased with my write-up of Lawsonia.  I had not been there since 1986; it's way better nowadays.


Howard R:  Yale is not my favorite Macdonald / Raynor course -- National is, as you can see from my ratings -- but I thought it was worthy of writing up, and I had nothing new to say about The National.  I've tried to balance the Gourmet's Choice between reprising old choices and making new ones, since a lot of readers have a copy of one of the earlier editions.


Buck:  Interesting to see Hooper's rates.  Hopefully they will get a few more people taking them up on the offers next year, once everyone reads about it.  They have really struggled to survive there, which is a crime for a course that good.

[Sven Nilsen]

Davenport CC looks to be 2.5 hours from Downtown Chicago --if I lived there I would be checking into an out-of-area membership before this info becomes widespread.

I know this comment is a bit dated, but it made me laugh.


Unless you're driving in the middle of the night, nothing in Chicagoland is as close as it seems, especially if you're traveling to or from downtown.  God forbid you have to drive through downtown.

[Buck Wolter]

Davenport CC looks to be 2.5 hours from Downtown Chicago --if I lived there I would be checking into an out-of-area membership before this info becomes widespread.

I know this comment is a bit dated, but it made me laugh.


Unless you're driving in the middle of the night, nothing in Chicagoland is as close as it seems, especially if you're traveling to or from downtown.  God forbid you have to drive through downtown.

Tuesday Morning at 8:50am  Google maps says 2 hours 38 minutes from Jackson and Dearborn