Length asymmetry between nines - how much is too much?

[John Connolly]

When considering either designing or renovating a course, what factors determine how willing one is to accept significant asymmetry in lengths of each nine? And more fundamentally, what how much yardage difference would be considered a significant asymmetry?

[Jason Topp]

The Palms in Indio has a 600 yard disparity.  I do not think it hurts the course at all.  The front is par 34 and the back par 36. 

[Scott Warren]

We will have a 37-34 split between the nines at Bonnie Doon when we are finished our redesign.

Front: two 5s & one 3
Back: one 5 & three 3s

That said, the back has two par fours over 420m so the numbers are somewhat misleading.

Generally speaking we will ultimately have a course that starts with long holes 1-7,10-11, 13-14 and 18 broken up by some really fun short threes and four or fours under 300m.

You'll be earning your score in the first third and then there's a good mix and rhythm of harder and easier all the way home.

Ultimately, if there's variety in the holes throughout, I don't think the par matters.

[John Connolly]

For purposes of this discussion, imagine the par for each side is the same. Call it 36. What yardage disparity is "acceptable?"

[Thomas Dai]

Should the prevailing wind be taken into account, especailly if and out-n-back routing?
Atb

[John Connolly]

Should the prevailing wind be taken into account, especailly if and out-n-back routing?
Atb

No - assume equal effects by prevailing winds.

[Bill_Yates]

When it comes to the discrepancy in the lengths of the two nines, the flow of play on the course also must be considered, particularly if you will be considering using two tee starts for regular or tournament play.


Having one nine that is considerably longer than the other, no matter what the par is, will make scheduling starting times a bit more complicated, as one nine will take more time to complete than the other, causing unneeded delays and backups when players cross over. You don't want to be building bad playing experience quality into the course.


If you are doing a design change or building a new course, by using a computer simulation program, the GCA and the course owners will be able to know well ahead of time how much length asymmetry in the nines is too much.

[Greg Tallman]

Quivira, located here in Cabo...

Front 9: 3051 par 34
Back 9: 4088 par 38

[Bill_McBride]

Pacific Dunes big disparity. 

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific Dunes big disparity.

Not really that much.  The front side is 3,419 yards [par 36] and the back is 3,138 [par 35].  And that's after they abandoned my super back tee for #18, which was 70 yards longer.  I agree that the back nine PLAYS shorter, with all the par-3's and par-5's, but the card isn't that different.


As to the opening post, I would not worry about the disparity if the holes were all really good.

[Sven Nilsen]

Old Mac, and it works.

[MClutterbuck]

For purposes of this discussion, imagine the par for each side is the same. Call it 36. What yardage disparity is "acceptable?"

You can still have one of the nines with three par 3s and three par 5s, making it a lot shorter than one with just one and one.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom Doak beat me to it, as usual    ..


But, I'll reinforce, if the holes are good I'm certain asymmetry between nines won't be noticed.


My recent redo of the Derrick Club, in Edmonton AB, ended up 2,929 yards par 34 on the front + a back nine of 3,580 yards par 36. In the planning stages, there were some complaints from certain members about this perceived asymmetry. The course opened in spring 2015, and I haven't heard anything about it since.

[Michael Felton]

The New Course at Walton Heath from the purple tees, the front nine is 3,211 and the back nine is 3,964. That's 750 yards difference. The back is par 37 and the front is 35. I don't notice a gross disparity when I play it. The back nine is clearly longer and there is only one par 3 on it, but it's not excessive.

[Mike Nuzzo]

John
I would consider it significant if the members play one nine from one set of tees and the other nine from a different set of tees to help balance the 9s.
Cheers

[Terry Lavin]

Odd is okay. Different is fine. Unusual is appreciated. Especially if the course is old and therefore presumably quirky.