[Chris Cupit]

AS an owner this is a difficult issue.  While I have always allowed high school teams access to play, the last few year have been difficult.  There are more teams than ever in my area and thus, many more "asks".  The good news is we now have girls programs and middle school programs but I have about twenty different teams now asking for access instead of five to seven.


A high school match typically takes up the tee sheet from 4:00-4:30 and 2 1/2 hours for the boys is quite typical.  For my dues paying member seeking a quick nine holes before dinner, it is a killer.  The girls teams will often play 6 holes but also at the 2 1/2 pace and I bring in a pro on my closed day (Tuesday) so the girls can play their matches without completely destroying my afternoon tee sheet.


I also host for free an Atlanta Junior Golf tournament every year instead of one of my paying outings, a US Kids golf event, (we have US Kids Tees on our course too), and host a fundraiser for AJG at cost each fall to help raise money for them--I also used to serve on their board.  And, as mentioned, we host about 12 matches a year for high schools not including the matches we help the girl with on Tuesdays.  I support junior golf.


But, aside from High School perhaps acting as a way to introduce a tiny group of kids to the game, it is utterly useless as a competitive avenue at least in my area and state--and I say this as a former State Champion     No college golf coach that I have ever known cares at all about high school matches.  For that reason high school golf is at best a way to introduce beginners to the game--and that is great.  But it needs to drop any emphasis on it being a competition.


First, why does every round have to be competitive?  Why can't we just introduce people to the game and let them enjoy playing first.  Golf is too tough for beginners and the rules far too complex for coaches and/players to really be able to play perfectly by the rules anyway and that is pretty necessary for a true competition anyway.


My suggestion is this (and I have made it to one coach in leadership of the GHSA):
1.  Force the boys to play all matches in a Stableford format.  You pick up after double bogey.  Those few teams that are excellent and who can afford to have their kids go play in "real tournaments" can still do that but for the other 95%, many of whom have players not nearly ready to play "by the rules" in stroke play, they get to learn a more playable form of the game.  EVERY Hole, EVERY SHOT is no longer life or death.


2.  For the girls who play on four person teams here is a bold idea:  Play Match Play Foursomes.  I know I hear the groans already but hear me out.  It is a far faster and more social game.  While you and your opponent are on the tee your partner and other opponent are in the drive zone helping spot the tee balls.  There is a very social aspect to this format and certainly more of a team emphasis.  In my two years with the USGA-LPGA girls in golf program one fundamental notion of the game was that for girls, it needs to be more collaberative and social.  In general they do not like the solititude that many boys are attracted to.


There will be a tiny number of girls who are very competitive who may not like this but they have plenty of other opportunites to display their skills and gain attention and scholarships.  Additionally, they can always ply up on the boys team and those that are looking to play D-1 golf will easily make 99% of any boys high school team.


High School golf should be a way to introduce kids to a fun game without the emphasis on winning and certainly without the notion that golf means "bearing down and trying super hard because every single shot matters and is crucial."  That mindset is killing us among kids.


I promise you, an outdoor stick and ball game has lots of possibilities--it just needs to be fun first and foremost.

[/size][size=78%]  [/size]

[BCrosby]

High School golf should be a way to introduce kids to a fun game without the emphasis on winning and certainly without the notion that golf means "bearing down and trying super hard because every single shot matters and is crucial."  That mindset is killing us among kids.

I promise you, an outdoor stick and ball game has lots of possibilities--it just needs to be fun first and foremost.

[size=78%]  [/size]

Well said Chris. It is a part of what is killing the game for these kids who are, after all, its future. 


We played matches in high school and it was a blast. The only medal rounds were in the state sectionals or regionals at the end of the season when our games were in decent enough shape to count every shot.


Bob 

[Niall C]

Niall, this is clearly an issue that gets your dander up, and I mean no offense, but most of the time when I have headed to a course to play as a single, I've been placed in an existing group of three, and played golf at the same pace as every other group out there. At TOC I had to go up to the threesome and obtain permission to join them before the starter would allow me to do so. Letting singles rip on through kinda bugs me, unless of course it's my group that is slowing things down. I'm willing to entertain the notion that this is a lack of empathy on my part. It's like when you're stuck in traffic, and a guy on a motorcyle whips by you on the shoulder.

Kirk,


It’s more amazement rather than real anger. My earlier posts to AG and JK might suggest something else but I just tend to respond in kind to what I’m given. From reading my posts you might also think I’m a loner who plays all my rounds in under 2 hrs 30 mins. That would be far from the truth as I can dawdle as much as others. However in doing so I do look behind to make sure I’m not holding anyone up. That’s just basic decency is it not ? In my experience it’s what most folk do so I’m not anything special.


I suspect  AG probably accepts the basic premis but tries to justify College kids not letting anyone through despite their recognised torpid play, by firstly saying “hey, it’s tournament golf – you can’t let anyone playing a bounce game through”, and secondly that “there’s nowhere to go” presumably on the basis that the players in the other groups have the same mindset.


On the first point I don’t doubt these guys are taking their game seriously but a tournament ? I’m sure on the whole the clubs are glad to see these young golfers but it’s not the US Open is it. If the last group of kids out lost a couple of balls on one hole and spent the allotted time looking for the balls, are AG and others really saying that they shouldn’t let the group behind through ? And if they let them through for that can there be any justification left for not letting the faster group through anyway other than the nowhere to go justification ? Probably not.


As for nowhere to go, well if every group took that view there wouldn’t be anywhere to go however if everyone took the opposite view and let the faster players through as a matter of course then that excuse would disappear as well. As I say, it’s all about manners and consideration for others.
 
Niall

[A.G._Crockett]

AS an owner this is a difficult issue.  While I have always allowed high school teams access to play, the last few year have been difficult.  There are more teams than ever in my area and thus, many more "asks".  The good news is we now have girls programs and middle school programs but I have about twenty different teams now asking for access instead of five to seven.


A high school match typically takes up the tee sheet from 4:00-4:30 and 2 1/2 hours for the boys is quite typical.  For my dues paying member seeking a quick nine holes before dinner, it is a killer.  The girls teams will often play 6 holes but also at the 2 1/2 pace and I bring in a pro on my closed day (Tuesday) so the girls can play their matches without completely destroying my afternoon tee sheet.


I also host for free an Atlanta Junior Golf tournament every year instead of one of my paying outings, a US Kids golf event, (we have US Kids Tees on our course too), and host a fundraiser for AJG at cost each fall to help raise money for them--I also used to serve on their board.  And, as mentioned, we host about 12 matches a year for high schools not including the matches we help the girl with on Tuesdays.  I support junior golf.


But, aside from High School perhaps acting as a way to introduce a tiny group of kids to the game, it is utterly useless as a competitive avenue at least in my area and state--and I say this as a former State Champion     No college golf coach that I have ever known cares at all about high school matches.  For that reason high school golf is at best a way to introduce beginners to the game--and that is great.  But it needs to drop any emphasis on it being a competition.


First, why does every round have to be competitive?  Why can't we just introduce people to the game and let them enjoy playing first.  Golf is too tough for beginners and the rules far too complex for coaches and/players to really be able to play perfectly by the rules anyway and that is pretty necessary for a true competition anyway.


My suggestion is this (and I have made it to one coach in leadership of the GHSA):
1.  Force the boys to play all matches in a Stableford format.  You pick up after double bogey.  Those few teams that are excellent and who can afford to have their kids go play in "real tournaments" can still do that but for the other 95%, many of whom have players not nearly ready to play "by the rules" in stroke play, they get to learn a more playable form of the game.  EVERY Hole, EVERY SHOT is no longer life or death.


2.  For the girls who play on four person teams here is a bold idea:  Play Match Play Foursomes.  I know I hear the groans already but hear me out.  It is a far faster and more social game.  While you and your opponent are on the tee your partner and other opponent are in the drive zone helping spot the tee balls.  There is a very social aspect to this format and certainly more of a team emphasis.  In my two years with the USGA-LPGA girls in golf program one fundamental notion of the game was that for girls, it needs to be more collaberative and social.  In general they do not like the solititude that many boys are attracted to.


There will be a tiny number of girls who are very competitive who may not like this but they have plenty of other opportunites to display their skills and gain attention and scholarships.  Additionally, they can always ply up on the boys team and those that are looking to play D-1 golf will easily make 99% of any boys high school team.


High School golf should be a way to introduce kids to a fun game without the emphasis on winning and certainly without the notion that golf means "bearing down and trying super hard because every single shot matters and is crucial."  That mindset is killing us among kids.


I promise you, an outdoor stick and ball game has lots of possibilities--it just needs to be fun first and foremost.

[size=78%]  [/size]

Chris,
Good ideas, all.

I think in GA, at least, the situation is difficult in terms of making changes.  A varsity team is allowed 14 competitive dates by the GHSA, which isn't much.  (There's a little variation to this; a 9 hole match before DST counts as a half date, and a two-day tournament counts as two, not one, events.  Often, it ends up that a team actually plays on far less days than the max of 14 because or weather; as you well know, there are a LOT of days in Feb-April that just don't work out.  Typically, if there is a match scheduled between Schools A and B on a particular date and it is rained out, there is little possibility that they will find a common open date when one or the other has course availability.  When I was coaching at Roswell, we had years where we got in as few as ten competitions before the region tournament rolled around.

And there's one of the rubs: the region tournament and the state tournament (and I think there is now a sectional round in GA as well?) are all contested at stroke play.  It's the beginning of the golf year, and it's tough to get buy in from coaches about not playing the format of the stuff that matters; for better or worse, coaches just aren't wired that way.  It's a VERY short season anyway, certainly compared to football and basketball, and with short daylight and late starting times, every date seems precious.  Region tournaments, in fact, were this week, and the state championships will be the first week of May; baseball state championships are a FULL MONTH later.  It would be far better for everyone if HS golf was a fall sport, but the south GA football coaches will NEVER let that happen; they might lose a third string defensive back, or worse, the golf coaching supplement.

And I of course agree with you 100% about the unimportance of HS golf to college coaches.  The same thing has become true in soccer, lacrosse, baseball and softball, and, to a troubling extent, basketball.  That said, I don't think most HS coaches in ANY sport approach their sport as if the validity of what they are doing is tied to what the colleges want or how the colleges recruit.  I may be hopelessly old-fashioned, but I think that being on a school team and winning a championship is just a cool thing; certainly our state championship golf teams at Roswell felt that way.  Some of those kids are now in their 40's, but they still come back as foursomes in the booster club tournament and have team reunions and all that stuff, just like a football or basketball team would.

We were really lucky at Roswell; Brookfield always gave us carte blanche, and I think largely still does.  Many (some years most!) of our players were members, and the staff just told members who were coming out late in the afternoon that there was a match on the front nine.  And the members were, overwhelmingly, great to us; maybe that's because they knew the kids.  And the staff knew that we would hold the kids' feet to the fire about dress, behavior, and yes, pace of play.   Anyway, it was and is a great relationship.  I feel sorry for schools that don't have that; I was the coach the year that Mike Riley was renovating Brookfield and we had to scramble for places to practice and play; it was a bear!  But we got a few days at Cherokee, and a few days at Settindown, and a few days at Woodmont, and a few days at White Columns, and got thru ok.  (The only place close by that wouldn't even talk to us was Atlanta National, which I doubt surprises you.)

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the subject, and thanks for what you do for teams in your area.

[Cliff Hamm]

Chris:  I think you nailed it.  I'd take it one step further (and mark my words, this is coming to a school district near you):  end high school athetics entirely. Have it all be club-based - more of a European model.  Since when is school about sports?  That's a uniquely American idea, at least at the crazed level we take it to.  I say: drop it.  Let the clubs handle it.  There's a damn club for everything nowadays.  I just heard the phrase "Feeder Rowing" for the first time a year ago. There's "feeder" everything!   I say:  kill feeder.  Give it nothing to feed into. 

 We live in a different world.  This ain't Ozzie and Harriet anymore.  Gotta think a little differently. The whole youth sports landscape is RIPE FOR DISRUPTION.  Let golf lead the way.  Let the PGA come up with a club-based model that lets schools do what they want to do and teach academics and let golf pros teach golf and basketball pros teach basketball, etc., etc. ...

Couldn't agree more. When we compare educational expenses in the US with the rest of the world one must subtract the cost of athletics. How much better would schools be if we didn't have administrators, who are only administrators because they are coaches. Unfortunately,  Sports rule schools more than they should.


 We are  currently at a state were AAU ball is more important than playing for the high school. For the elite players the high school is likely not the local school. In golf what matters is junior golf not high school golf. I could go on and on. Keep schools as an educational institution. Not an athletic one.

[Mike Sweeney]

I may be hopelessly old-fashioned, but I think that being on a school team and winning a championship is just a cool thing; certainly our state championship golf teams at Roswell felt that way.  Some of those kids are now in their 40's, but they still come back as foursomes in the booster club tournament and have team reunions and all that stuff, just like a football or basketball team would.

Totally agree   My son was a hired gun on a squash team for a "Post-Grad Year" at a prep school. He did a season or two on a track team at his regular high school, but he never had the traditional team experience in squash. In just one season, he got closer to those teammates than most kids from 4 years at his regular high school. Now before Shivas jumps on me as one of the fancy Manhattan sports parents, this was all set up by the Naval Academy who takes 33% of their students from "alternative sources" (not direct from high school). They have been using this model since WWII. It gives the students, especially varsity athletes, a chance to adjust/mature to Academy life. I had one well known Admiral tell me he thought EVERY male should be 19 and/or have a post-grad year before entering.

One of the great problems with GCA (and this USA political season) is the desire to fit everyone in the same box. What works at an inner city school should be different from a suburban private school.Back on topic and after thinking this out to Corey:

• Perhaps the private club can require the scholastic golfers to pass a rules and etiquette test BEFORE they are allowed to play stroke play. Match play, let the Coach deal with it. This builds in a hybrid model where the Club Pro can be a sort of Bad Cop to the Teacher/Coach who is trying to be supportive. In squash, all the kids who play on the US Squash circuit must eventually pass a referee test to play the big tournaments. They must referee the match that follows their match, and in general, it works very well. They all learn the rules, and most take it seriously.
• USGA - They have never been involved in high school golf, only "Junior Golf", which typically means elite single digit players. Looking at the US Squash model, they run "Gold", "Silver", and "Bronze" events with players self-selecting their levels. Maybe the USGA could set some guidelines for second and third tier players in Junior Golf and this would filter over to high school golf. This has never been their way, but it really is a mistake.

[BCrosby]

• USGA - They have never been involved in high school golf, only "Junior Golf", which typically means elite single digit players. Looking at the US Squash model, they run "Gold", "Silver", and "Bronze" events with players self-selecting their levels. Maybe the USGA could set some guidelines for second and third tier players in Junior Golf and this would filter over to high school golf. This has never been their way, but it really is a mistake.

Mike -


That is a wonderful idea. I did not know other sports broke down their competitions that way. Ideally, the lower tier groups would compete on a basis other than medal play. I can't think of a better way to grow the game.y

I hope you will suggest it to the USGA. Let me know if I can help with that.

Bob

PS - The problem with fonts kicking in and out on this site is simply unacceptable.

[Mike Sweeney]

I hope you will suggest it to the USGA. Let me know if I can help with that.

Bob

Bob,


I sent it to their general mailbox. I don't know anyone specific at the USGA, and if you do, please take the lead. No credit needed.


My son started in a "gold" for his first US Squash tournament because I was stupid He adjusted, and he is the Poster Child for the value of the bronze, silver, gold system in US Squash. It worked:


http://www.navysports.com/sports/c-squash/mtt/dylan_sweeney_988631.html

[Kalen Braley]

My daughter has been playing club lacrosse for the last 3 years.  The last two she's been on a traveling team that went all over the Western US playing all the best teams.

Lacrosse configures the tournies with several levels usually by graduation year.  One tournament could have 30-40 teams and 4-5 levels.

-  Open Level,  any and all girls up to 2016 Graduation year.
-  4 additional levels based on Grad year, for example 2017-2020.

Its been perfect for them to remain competitive and play at a similar level to other teams so they aren't getting blown out or have too many easy wins.

[Keith OHalloran]

Is there any problem with getting better if you are always playing an evenly matched team or opponent? Don't you sometimes need to be pushed by a better opponent?

[Tim Martin]

Is there any problem with getting better if you are always playing an evenly matched team or opponent? Don't you sometimes need to be pushed by a better opponent?

Only if you want a real world scenario.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris:  I think you nailed it.  I'd take it one step further (and mark my words, this is coming to a school district near you):  end high school athetics entirely. Have it all be club-based - more of a European model.  Since when is school about sports?  That's a uniquely American idea, at least at the crazed level we take it to.  I say: drop it.  Let the clubs handle it.  There's a damn club for everything nowadays.  I just heard the phrase "Feeder Rowing" for the first time a year ago. There's "feeder" everything!   I say:  kill feeder.  Give it nothing to feed into. 

 We live in a different world.  This ain't Ozzie and Harriet anymore.  Gotta think a little differently. The whole youth sports landscape is RIPE FOR DISRUPTION.  Let golf lead the way.  Let the PGA come up with a club-based model that lets schools do what they want to do and teach academics and let golf pros teach golf and basketball pros teach basketball, etc., etc. ...

Thanks.  I agree about the idolization of sport--borderline psychotic and this is coming from a Classics major who appreciates the notion of "sport" and its positive impact on civilization.


Anyway, what about having schools and universities as places of learning.  If you happen to be good at a sport, or a talented musician, or great at chess and want to voluntarily represent your school in an extra curricular activity then go do it.  Athletic Scholarships?!?!  What kind of bizare oxymoron is that!  And yes, I received one

[Cliff Hamm]

Food for thought about high school sports and education:


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/

[John Kavanaugh]

White parents will travel 100 miles each way so their kids can play against other white people.  Club teams are just another way to keep the wrong people out of your club. A disgusting trend that equally harms all children no matter what their race.

[Jon Wiggett]

White parents will travel 100 miles each way so their kids can play against other white people.  Club teams are just another way to keep the wrong people out of your club. A disgusting trend that equally harms all children no matter what their race.

John,

but that is a societal problem not a problem with golf or sport in general sport.

Jon

[John Kavanaugh]

Jon,


Hopefully this travel team debacle is just an American thing. It not only divides children along racial lines it puts a huge financial and emotional toll on the parents. I know people who simply can not afford the travel, resent the time their children are robbing from them at the prime of their lives, and hate their spouse for pushing the kid into a sport where there is no backing out and very little future.


We've had Title 9 and Prop 48, now we need legislation protecting kids from travel teams. Oh, golf is the worst with its junior tournaments. How anyone stays married to a golf parent I'll never know.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

You obviously haven't travelled to the same tournaments I've been too in the last two years.  While Utah is certainly homogenous, everywhere we travelled to and teams we played against had well-integrated teams in every meaning of the word.

P.S.  My kid pushed for her involvement in the travel team, and spent hours and hours of alone practice time to make the team.  I even tried to get her to try basketball, but she was all about Lacrosse.

[A.G._Crockett]

In short order, we've gone from questioning the pace of play of HS golfers, to advocating the abolition of HS sports.  Remarkable...

I won't get into the financing of HS sports, except to say that very little of what you see at a HS game in ANY sport is paid for out of tax money.  I don't expect many of you to accept that, but it's the truth.  I don't mean to say that athletic funding is an insignificant portion of the school budget; it isn't.  But neither is funding for music programs, art programs, special ed adaptive PE programs, and on and on.  None of those will, btw, help the test scores that are so often used to compare American public education to other countries.

But the idea that the answer to school finance problems OR test scores is the abolition of HS sports is to me at best misguided. This is coming from a guy who wasn't just a coach; I was in the classroom then entire time, and taught general ed classes, AP classes, and from time to time team-taught special ed classes.  In the places where money issues have led to the reduction or elimination of athletics and other "unnecessary" programs, the money woes have continued unabated.  An unwillingness by the public to fund public education doesn't turn off like a light switch.

The attractions of travel and club teams are several, and I don't think those of you that wish that model would replace school sports fully understand.  High school seasons are VERY strictly regimented; there are state-mandated rules on practices, the number of contests, academic standards, physical exams, coaching certification, and on and on.  None of that constrains the travel and club team industry, and I use the term "industry" intentionally.

The reason college basketball coaches now do their recruiting primarily thru AAU is because AAU is a Wild West show by comparison with HS basketball.  For many, many years, I sat in on EVERY home visit with every one of my players who was being recruited; by the end of my career, I had kids signing and I had never even spoken with the college coach!  AAU basketball now starts instantly after the end of the HS season, and doesn't stop until the next HS season is about to start.  The kids are worn out and jaded, which is no surprise, and I think if you polled HS basketball coaches around the country you'd find that a majority wish they'd never heard the letters "AAU".   Club soccer is the most relentlessly year-round, but baseball is the worst because the pitchers are having Tommy John surgery before they are out of high school; they are being coached by guys who just don't know what they are doing.  Or don't care... 

There is an old saying to the effect that it is better to have your enemies in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.  In high school basketball, a varsity team is allowed 26 games, not counting playoffs; the JV and freshman teams can play 14 games. AAU teams will play 14 games a month, and might get close to 80 games per season.  AAU/travel/club teams are also just absurdly expensive, so many kids are excluded automatically, and many families really struggle to come up with the money for travel, motels, meals, etc.  Those of you that want less of high school sports and more of the club and AAU model better be careful what you ask for; you might get it!

If you disagree with this, go to it.  One request; don't call me any more names, ok?  I spent my adult life doing this stuff; in the classroom, as a basketball and golf coach (both before and after the advent of travel/AAU/club sports), and as the parent of a travel baseball player and then high school baseball player.  I'm not exactly winging it here... 

[John Kavanaugh]

AG,


Do you have any pics of yourself in those BIKE brand coaching shorts?

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,


Do you have any pics of yourself in those BIKE brand coaching shorts?

John,
I do, but you'll never see it!

Fortunately for me, I was a flat-belly at that time.  But I worked with a lot of guys who just looked awful in those things.  They were the leisure suits of coaching attire.

[Sean_A]

AG


High School should be about training some people for jobs (unfortunately the system often fails to properly recognize this) and preparing others for university, but either way there should be loads of opportunities for life lessons.  High school sports at their best are exactly that...more opportunities to learn about yourself, how you fit into the world, how you effect the people around you and maybe most of all...more opportunities to succeed. Sure, I think things get carried away at all levels of sport, but the good far outweighs the bad.  No way would I be for banning sport just as I would be against removing music, drama or art studies from the curriculum.  In fact...I think music should be 3 years compulsory at high school!  The more schools limit exposure to life the more doors we close for the future.


Ciao

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