[corey miller]

The pace of play at my club has been getting slower over the years.  Based on some of the previous threads it seems it is a fairly widespread problem. 


Our club gladly opens it doors to three different schools for them to compete in their interscholastic matches.  I am not suggesting that this be stopped or limited but having seen these matches over the years extend to 2.5 to 3 hours for nine holes I do wonder how we are in any way doing something "for the good of the game". 


With four players in each group I have suggested to others that each group should get a specific time on the course, perhaps 2 hours? 2.5 hours. 


Thoughts?  I believe it would be a great benefit to the game if all clubs opened up their facilities but did "teach" pace of play. Not gaining any traction in my world. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Our club also offers some local schools access, but mainly for Northwestern University's women's team.
If you read the previous thread on pace of play, then perhaps you saw my rant on "pre-shot routines" and "ready golf".


I have played in my fair share of tournaments and, from my experince, NO ONE begins their routine on ANY shot until the player who is away has hit their shot. It is VERY annoying. That is where the 5 hour rounds come from.


The PGA Tour, or the USGA (I forget), has had some initiatives that ask players to play from the appropriate set of tees. I think it is called "Play it Forward" or something like that. It needs to go one step farther and have a "ready Golf" initiative that is national in scope and offers examples, instruction, TV ads and then it is followed by the pros.

[Mark Bourgeois]

corey this is a great question. I guess I would first go to the schools' governing body rulebook for sports. Is there anything in there about sportsmanship and / or pace of play? Then I would call up the authorities at that level and from there work down to the coaches.

[Doug Siebert]

The PGA Tour, or the USGA (I forget), has had some initiatives that ask players to play from the appropriate set of tees. I think it is called "Play it Forward" or something like that. It needs to go one step farther and have a "ready Golf" initiative that is national in scope and offers examples, instruction, TV ads and then it is followed by the pros.

Claiming "play it forward" will have much of an affect on pace of play is a joke. I've never seen any evidence golfers playing from the wrong tees has much of anything to do with pace of play. The lack of golfing IQ that results in slow play can also result in players playing tees that are beyond their ability. It is easy to recall examples of a foursome of bogey golfers playing the 76/140 tees who were holding you up, but if you watch how they conduct themselves you'd see they are slow because of how they play, not where they are playing from. Fast players will play fast even if they are playing from so far back most of the par 4s play as par 5s for them.

Now maybe the "play it forward" campaign can also argue golfers will have more fun playing from the correct set of tees, but that's a totally different thing. I've always said that for golfers past the beginner stage (i.e. can make decent contact and usually have some idea of where it is going) that choosing your tees is pretty simple. If you are hitting mostly wedges to par 4s move back, if you are hitting mostly woods/hybrids move up.

[Pete_Pittock]

corey,
high school, college, or both. Different answers.

[Bill_Yates]

Corey,
Whether high school or college, this is a great opportunity for your club and your professional staff to step up and work with these teams and their coaches. When they are the guests at your club, they need to play by your rules, and in doing so you will be helping teach these young players the etiquette necessary to play good golf, ready golf and golf at an appropriate pace.

I would first recommend that if your course does not already have one, ask your pro to get your regional or state golf association to give you a USGA Pace Rating for the course. This will represent an objective "should take" time to play each hole based on the length, difficulty and individual design features. It also represents the expected time to play your course when the course is filled with foursomes.

With support from your Board, your pro can explain this to the coaches and make it a condition of using your club, that they monitor play to meet or take less time than the "Time Par" for each hole.  If the players and coaches find this too difficult to achieve, they need to do a better job of teaching ready golf, and adopting shorter pre-shot routines, or find another host course that is not interested in training young players to be good golfing citizens.

[Sean_A]

Okay, it was a loooooong time ago, but our golf coach said the time to play is 1:45...and he meant it.  If you took longer without an obvious good excuse (and the coach knew exactly what was going so there was snowing him), there was no way you were going to play in the next match.  I tell you what, players had no problem telling each other to hurry up.  There were more than few times that our coach scheduled matches for visiting teams he considered not up to par timewise on a crap local course rather than the nice private course.  You better believe our side would give them stick and make demands...we didn't want to play the crappy public course!  The coach was all about making sure our priveledges weren't revoked by the private club.  Plus, he was the hockey coach so he was used to fast play    Of course, the coach put players out by speed, not skill or strategy.  The fastest guy in the first group and so on....so he knew the excuses for slow play would be well worth hearing...and he asked golfers to state their reasons in front of the entire team!  Not many guys challenged the slow play rule 


This all sounds a bit draconian, but it wasn't.  Players quickly figured out the rules and complied. Afterall, high school golf was the biggest goof off going...imagine leaving school early to play golf...awesome.



Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't want to label you guys as grumpy old men, but I don't think you'll find many situations in which a four ball stroke play competition playing by the Rules completes 9 holes in 2 hours or less.  Typically, the club championship at your club features rounds approaching 5 hours, no?

Having been a high school golf coach, I'm VERY sensitive to the concern, and I can promise you that these kids' coaches are trying their best; they aren't paid by the hour!  (In fact, they're barely paid at all...)  But you've got kids who don't know the course and might not have had a chance to hit practice balls because of daylight issues hitting drivers into places they don't know about and putting on greens with which they are not familiar. 

My best advice?  Find out the days when the HS matches will be there and either stay away or play the other side.  You can't push a rope.

[Sean_A]

I don't want to label you guys as grumpy old men, but I don't think you'll find many situations in which a four ball stroke play competition playing by the Rules completes 9 holes in 2 hours or less. 

Ahhhh, I think this is the source of disgruntlement     The issue is how and why play should be quicker...not make excuses for slow play.


Ciao

[corey miller]

I may be a grumpy old guy but I am not sure this is the reason.     Again, we let three High Schools play at the private club and many would say the reason (does any other private entity open up their facilities for free to schools? ) is for the "good of the game"  I agree, and have no problem but I do think it would be good for the game if the next generation of golfers played faster.  am I going to far if I also ask them to have respect for the course? 


Perhaps the problem with slow play in the club events A.G. references is a function of where and how the members learned to play? Many guys in the D class club championship take the game too seriously but if we are speaking of a weekly high school match having to last 4.5 hours perhaps those children are being forced to take the game too seriously?


How many members at many private clubs enter and exit bunkers from the proper spot? Should we never even explain this to beginners? 


This is certainly not an indictment of you A.G. but I would think the rule would even be a help to coaches? 

[Steve Lapper]

Hey Corey!


   How are you my friend? Hope all is well by you and yours.


   I've been very active of late in adding a unisex middle school golf program to the league of private and public schools in my area. We've been fortunate to get some practice and competition time at 4 nearby private courses (one a living architectural museum ). Six schools with kids btw 11-15 yrs old with teams no larger than four game players and two alternates. A few asst. pros have volunteered some of their time and their clubs ponied up some spare equipment. Within two weeks, every slot at all the schools was filled up!


    I asked the AD of my daughter's (yes, her participation was my primary motivation in establishing this program) school to establish a MAXIMUM time across the league for any 3-6-or 9 hole match! We settled on 14 minutes per hole max and all the kids carry their own clubs and tend to all their own caddy duties. It's not as fast as I'd wish, but it make sense to start there. Some of the kids are still quite small and the terrain can be challenging. We are telling the kids they can't win with any score that is above quad-bogey...so pick-ups can and do happen. It's early so far, but with the first twoo weeks behind us, seemingly every kid loves it and many parents as well. Some parents have revealed themselves as more impediment than not, but I honestly believe they might eventually learn some etiquette and speed as well. Time will tell.


Hope we can tee it up sometime this year! Cheers!

[Mike Sweeney]

Six schools with kids btw 11-15 yrs old with teams no larger than four game players and two alternates. A few asst. pros have volunteered some of their time and their clubs ponied up some spare equipment. Within two weeks, every slot at all the schools was filled up!

I asked the AD of my daughter's (yes, her participation was my primary motivation in establishing this program) school to establish a MAXIMUM time across the league for any 3-6-or 9 hole match! We settled on 14 minutes per hole max and all the kids carry their own clubs and tend to all their own caddy duties. It's not as fast as I'd wish, but it make sense to start there. Some of the kids are still quite small and the terrain can be challenging. We are telling the kids they can't win with any score that is above quad-bogey...so pick-ups can and do happen. It's early so far, but with the first twoo weeks behind us, seemingly every kid loves it and many parents as well. Some parents have revealed themselves as more impediment than not, but I honestly believe they might eventually learn some etiquette and speed as well.

Steve,



This sounds great. It was my impression that casual high school golf was out, and everything was focused on tournament style golf. You have actually extended it to middle school, which is fabulous.


Corey,


Back in the day, we played Monday matches on private clubs and Friday matches at Cobbs Creek/public courses. It was a pretty simple conversation, "Behave appropriately or else we lose Monday privileges." Looks like Friday matches are rare now, except for one on a Friday at Juanita which is public:


http://www.sjprep.org/page.cfm?p=687


Last summer I watched my son and 1097 of his classmates spend 7 weeks without a mobile phone. They can and will adjust if the rules are clear and enforced. Sleepy Hollow versus Mohansic is a pretty simple choice/incentive for 98% of all golfers, and I am a fan of Mohansic.

[Jon Wiggett]

4ball strokeplay should be pretty fast as the forms of 4bbb, foresomes and greensomes lend themselves to speedy progress. Individual strokeplay should be in 2 or 3 balls. 9 holes should be easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours.

Jon

[Steve Lapper]

Mike,


At the High School or Varsity level out here the 9 & 18 hole matches are unquestionably geared to "tournament style," though keeping up a fluid pace of play is a constant reminder and theme. We've asked the coaches to bench kids who are too slow or don't carry themselves with complete civility.


At the Middle School level, esprit de corps and sportsmanship is emphasized. I'm sure you and I are near identical parents about reminding our children that the values inherent in the game of golf remain paramount over its performance at those ages. If they learn little else.........


Off to see my oldest Bat Mitzvah'd today.....she wants to go on a one-on-one golf trip/experience with me this summer for a gift from me in lieu of anything material......I only hope I'm not creating a little......

[A.G._Crockett]

4ball strokeplay should be pretty fast as the forms of 4bbb, foresomes and greensomes lend themselves to speedy progress. Individual strokeplay should be in 2 or 3 balls. 9 holes should be easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours.

Jon

Jon,
I agree with you that, when possible, a three ball match is preferable to a four ball; the pace of play gains are often much more than 25%.

That said, there is NO way that a high school golf match is going to be "easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours."  Those are numbers that are possible if players pick up after double bogey, etc, not times that you see if players putt and play under the Rules.

I hate to be negative about this, but competitive stroke play at ANY age is just SLOW.  Applying times that work for a casual round just isn't realistic.  2 hours, hopefully.  Less than that?  I can't see it.

[corey miller]

My thoughts here were in no way intended to limit access to any group currently using my club.  Nor did it have any bearing on any round I would ever play.  I have however seen 1.5-2 hole openings after 4 holes of play ETC ETC so skipping and making do on the course is not as easy as you may think. 


My most recent post was based on just seeing the play on a green on our first hole while I was driving. It is worse than a tour event. 


Steve and Mike...lets play this summer.


Steve...I love what you have done with your local program...kudos...even nicer when I hear about your daughter's Bat Mitzvah request.    [size=78%] [/size]

[jeffwarne]

Our club also offers some local schools access, but mainly for Northwestern University's women's team.
If you read the previous thread on pace of play, then perhaps you saw my rant on "pre-shot routines" and "ready golf".


I have played in my fair share of tournaments and, from my experince, NO ONE begins their routine on ANY shot until the player who is away has hit their shot. It is VERY annoying. That is where the 5 hour begind

Id say with Jordan Spieth being the new normal-its over.
80 seconds to hit his putt on 8.
IBFinch glorifying the back off isn't helping.
Sick of his constant chat with Grillo
then 17 swings.then back off.
when you take multiple practice swings, you lose the right to bav k off-every shot.
Waiting for Rory to deck him

[Mike Sweeney]

I hate to be negative about this, but competitive stroke play at ANY age is just SLOW.  Applying times that work for a casual round just isn't realistic.  2 hours, hopefully.  Less than that?  I can't see it.

The Big East was the first college conference to put in a shot clock BEFORE the NCAA implemented it for basketball. Dave Gavitt broke every rule when he set up the league:


http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/28/sports/clock-gains-in-big-east.html


See Steve's post, put them on the clock, charge them strokes and they will adapt.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hello, another high school golf coach checking in. To establish a baseline of my credentials/experience, I have coached our varsity girls program for 13 years (since its inception), and coached/assisted our boys program for 16 years. Two of our girls have won NY State titles, going on to play at Vanderbilt and UTexas, while another played four years at Mercyhurst. Our fellows have competed for NYU, Florida Gulf Coast, Navy and a number of D3 schools.


Our girls compete in the CISAA, a Toronto-centric league, while our fellows compete in a Buffalo-area league. The girls play 18-hole tournaments on Wednesdays, and we supplement our schedule with scrimmages other days of the week. Our fellows played 9-hole matches at match play through the 2015 season, but will turn to medal play beginning in 2016.


We are fortunate to practice/play at area private clubs. It is critical to have supporters on the board and on the staff of the club. Successful schools do things like pick the edges of the range at some point during the season, walk the course filling divots/repairing ball marks, and waving members through, greeting them and thanking them as they pass. This is not sycophantic behavior a la Eddie Haskell (inventor of the Haskell ball, don't you know?) but proper and gracious ROI.


If a club decides to offer free golf to area high schools, I thank you. If said club expects more than what I have elaborated above, shouldn't the club appoint some cooperative members/staff to assist the high school golfers to meet those expectations? If Mr. Corey, supportive as he is of the three area programs, wants them to speed up their play in the interest of short-term and long-term gains, might he and others offer to interact at the beginning of each season (ideally, during the tryout phase) with the teams, to explain the benefits of well-choreographed, prompt play? I know that our golfers are very cognizant of what members and better players have to say.


This being said, Mr. Crockett nails some very important and easily-overlooked points. The home team is only one half of the equation. A member of the visiting team will not be as familiar with the nuances of the course, and will be grinding to help her/his team steal a win from the home squad, perhaps taking an extra look at each shot faced over the course of 9 or 18 holes.


Remember, too, that you self-proclaimed, grumpy old men are looking back at high school (read: teenaged) golfers with the wisdom of age and experience.


What happens when one team offers up a quick player, and the opposing team counters with a more deliberate one? You may wish to send out your faster players in the first grouping, but the other coach has complete control over her/his side.


Mr. Corey, if you truly hope to establish prompt play among the high school teams that compete at your most-generous club, I encourage you to enlist the club professional staff and teach the kids how to hit recovery shots. Ever seen a kid hit a ball into the trees? Happens every day. Ever seen a kid recover well with a punch or a pitch back to the fairway? They are more likely to leave it in the rough, bang it off a tree, or blast it through the fairway, into trouble.


I could go on, but then who would buy my book? I hope that this contribution has been helpful.


RM

[jeffwarne]

Why would you subject the playersl and the club to stroke play in 4 balls?
At no level Is this a fast format

[Mike Sweeney]

Hello, another high school golf coach checking in. To establish a baseline of my credentials/experience, I have coached our varsity girls program for 13 years (since its inception), and coached/assisted our boys program for 16 years. Two of our girls have won NY State titles, going on to play at Vanderbilt and UTexas, while another played four years at Mercyhurst. Our fellows have competed for NYU, Florida Gulf Coast, Navy and a number of D3 schools.

Our girls compete in the CISAA, a Toronto-centric league, while our fellows compete in a Buffalo-area league. The girls play 18-hole tournaments on Wednesdays, and we supplement our schedule with scrimmages other days of the week. Our fellows played 9-hole matches at match play through the 2015 season, but will turn to medal play beginning in 2016.

Ron,


It is my impression that most D1 golfers get recruited off of AJGA rankings, regional junior golf rankings, and then local high school events come a very distant third. This knowledge comes from a number of younger GCA members who were very helpful to me when my son was being recruited for a different niche sport.


I absolutely LOVE the NESCAC schools (Williams, Bates, Middlebury, Tufts....), and how they run that league but it is not the same thing as Texas and Vanderbilt. I have absolutely no doubt that the coaches of Texas and Vanderbilt want your opinion about the PERSON that plays for you, but I would be shocked if they are interested in that players high school golf league results from a short season in Buffalo.

Mr. Corey, if you truly hope to establish prompt play among the high school teams that compete at your most-generous club, I encourage you to enlist the club professional staff and teach the kids how to hit recovery shots. Ever seen a kid hit a ball into the trees? Happens every day. Ever seen a kid recover well with a punch or a pitch back to the fairway? They are more likely to leave it in the rough, bang it off a tree, or blast it through the fairway, into trouble.

This is the exact reason why stroke play should be implemented in high school local matches. When you are out of the hole, pick up and keep moving. We just watched a kid (Jordan Spieth) go through this at Augusta on 18. Needless to say, he is at a different level than most former high school golfers.

Today there are plenty of options outside of 9 hole high school matches for a kid to be exposed to college recruiters. High school golf is what brought me into golf, and I still suck I was the fifth man on the St Joe's Prep golf team and 35 years later today I was trying 6 different ways to hit a bucket of golf balls today at 53 years old.

I think you and the other high school coaches need to stop talking about your DI recruits and focus on your players that still play, still love, and still contribute to the game of golf. It's a great game, and just for the record, Steve Lapper sucks just a little bit less than me. What he is doing for golf is fantastic. Steve is a friend, but I am genuinely impressed by what he is doing out there in the farmlands of Jersey. 


Fairways and greens.

[Jon Wiggett]

4ball strokeplay should be pretty fast as the forms of 4bbb, foresomes and greensomes lend themselves to speedy progress. Individual strokeplay should be in 2 or 3 balls. 9 holes should be easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours.

Jon

Jon,
I agree with you that, when possible, a three ball match is preferable to a four ball; the pace of play gains are often much more than 25%.

That said, there is NO way that a high school golf match is going to be "easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours."  Those are numbers that are possible if players pick up after double bogey, etc, not times that you see if players putt and play under the Rules.

I hate to be negative about this, but competitive stroke play at ANY age is just SLOW.  Applying times that work for a casual round just isn't realistic.  2 hours, hopefully.  Less than that?  I can't see it.

AG,

where I did my apprenticeship the big strokeplay competitions of the year would usually have about 230 entrants all of who played on the same day with the last group taking typically 3.5 to 3.75 hours for 18 holes. I do not recall it ever going over 4 hours. Strokeplay need not, indeed should not be a slow format.

Jon

[Ronald Montesano]

Mike,


I don't understand a lot of what you have written (you cannot pick up in stroke play, for instance) and I don't believe that you have closely read what I have written (We are not focused on D1 recruits). The NESCAC schools that you mention, in addition, are taking kids who could play D1, but want to have an education. Gone are the days where those kids are 90s shooters.

[A.G._Crockett]

4ball strokeplay should be pretty fast as the forms of 4bbb, foresomes and greensomes lend themselves to speedy progress. Individual strokeplay should be in 2 or 3 balls. 9 holes should be easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours.

Jon

Jon,
I agree with you that, when possible, a three ball match is preferable to a four ball; the pace of play gains are often much more than 25%.

That said, there is NO way that a high school golf match is going to be "easily covered in 1.5 to 1.75 hours."  Those are numbers that are possible if players pick up after double bogey, etc, not times that you see if players putt and play under the Rules.

I hate to be negative about this, but competitive stroke play at ANY age is just SLOW.  Applying times that work for a casual round just isn't realistic.  2 hours, hopefully.  Less than that?  I can't see it.

AG,

where I did my apprenticeship the big strokeplay competitions of the year would usually have about 230 entrants all of who played on the same day with the last group taking typically 3.5 to 3.75 hours for 18 holes. I do not recall it ever going over 4 hours. Strokeplay need not, indeed should not be a slow format.

Jon

Jon,
That's great; I'd be curious to know details; ages of the players, average handicaps, familiarity with the course among the players, distance from greens to the next tee, how many holes had OB or water hazards, and so on.  It is very possible that the commonalities are less than you believe.

In my experience, stroke play IF players are putting out and not picking up at double or triple max and otherwise playing by the Rules is just slow golf.  I don't care what age we're talking about, either; clubs where the norm is a sub 4 hour round for a four ball end up with 5 hour rounds in club tournaments.  High school kids get singled out all the time, but I don't see one bit of difference in their pace of play vs others IF the formats are identical.

[Nate Oxman]

I coach high school golf outside of Philly. We play 9-holes of stroke play (8 vs. 8 in foursomes). Although I haven't been coaching long, I identified the causes of slow play in our league quickly. Below are generalizations from my team's matches and might not apply to those of you who coach:


1) Lost balls. Some don't watch the golf ball until it stops rolling. Other players in the group don't watch each other's shots and/or don't help look for golf balls. I have two assistant coaches so we often have one coach who serves as a forecaddie for a group. The kids don't hit enough provisionals. I see a player walk back to the tee at least once per match.


2) As mentioned in other posts, many kids aren't ready when it is their turn. A player will stand a few feet away from his teammate in the group and watch him hit while he should be standing at his ball. Some players don't know when it is okay to walk ahead (ex: three players are on the left side of the fairway, one is 10 yards ahead and in the right rough. The player in the right rough will stand in the fairway instead of walking "wide" to his ball).


3) Slow walkers. Many walk slowly in between shots (some are chatting, some just haven't been taught to walk at a good pace). I play with the kids often in practice and have to constantly remind them to keep pace with me. Yes, I'm taller than most and have longer strides, but my wife is 8 inches shorter than me and I have trouble keeping up with her as she zips through the aisles of Target.

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