Pace of Play for scholastic golfers

[Jason Thurman]

Sandy McNiblick?


I see that Donald Ross not only devised the system, but also applied it to the courses at Pinehurst. I guess that explains the resort's reputation as a bastion of quick play.


I was in the first group off when I played No. 2, and our caddie was given specific orders by the starter to make sure we didn't play the front side in under two hours because they were running a two-tee start. I guess he didn't have the card with him that day.

[Mike Sweeney]

However, our league championship tourney is stroke play, and that abrupt transition can be problematic to some.

Agreed as our league championship was/is stroke play. It was always the biggest event of the season, and while Stableford could be an option, the tradition always was stroke play. There is no way to contest that many people in match play in one day and also identify the best league golfers.


In terms of kids being seen/recruited by colleges, how did the Conn vs Mass - stroke vs match play work out with college coaches? My impression is that only a few kids are really at that level on a HS team and they get most of their exposure on regional/national events.

[MCirba]

Jason,

Yep, Sandy McNiblick was a long time golf writer for the Philadelphia Public Ledger back in those days.

I think Joe Bausch at some point figured out his real name but he was very connected to the inner working of golf in Philly and generally at the time.

***Edit*** Dr. Bausch informs me that his real name was Percy Sanderson.   

Colorful bylines were very popular at the time.   In and around Philly you had such golf reporting luminaries as Billy Bunker, Donald McTee, Joe Bunker, Verdant Greene, not to mention Tillinghast using such names as "Hazard" and "Far and Sure" for American Golfer.

[Dan_Callahan]

In terms of kids being seen/recruited by colleges, how did the Conn vs Mass - stroke vs match play work out with college coaches? My impression is that only a few kids are really at that level on a HS team and they get most of their exposure on regional/national events.

College coaches outside of the NESCAC and Ivies don't care about New England prep school results. The only way DI schools will look at a kid on my team is through the regional and national events. In fact, I had a kid who was twice named Boston Globe prep player of the year and was a +3 handicap, and the top DI schools weren't interested in him. He then qualified for the US AM the summer after he graduated high school and played at the Country Club, paired with Oliver Goss. It's a tough road for New England golfers. Off the top of my head, I can think of three (James Driscoll at Taft, Brett Stegmaier at Avon, Cody Paladino at Kingswood) who played on the national stage in college.

[Kalen Braley]

I coach a high school team in Mass.


Everything is match play. If it's a tri match, the three#1s go out together, three #2s go together, etc.


If it's a dual match, #1s and #2s go out in foursomes, followed by #3s and #4s, etc. In the dual matches, the eighth match doesn't count, which gives less experienced kids a chance to see what a match is like without the stress of possibly costing the team a win.


When I coached in Conn, it was all stroke play. Match play is significantly faster. However, our league championship tourney is stroke play, and that abrupt transition can be problematic to some.

How does a 3 person match play work?  3 matches on every hole I guess?  I suppose that could work.  One match could be over early, but the other 2 play on near the end if its close?

[A.G._Crockett]

"The essence of this thread the idea that HS golfers are somehow slower and therefore a problem.  My contention, based on my experience, is that four ball stroke play under the Rules is the slowest way possible to play golf, and that the pace of play in club championships ALWAYS reflects this.  I don't think anybody has even disputed that, have they?"


You're right, AG. Nobody has disputed that the pace of play in a club championship is ALWAYS slow.

But somebody HAS, to most everyone here but you, disproven the ridiculous theory of yours that slow play in club championships has any bearing at all on why 4 youthful, able-bodied tournament golfers (as opposed to a foursome of old, casual golfing hacks that suck at golf) cannot play 18 holes under the rules of golf in 4 hours - as their predecessors somehow managed to do for generations. 

So the reason nobody has disputed your theory is that its not worth disputing because the premise is obviously flawed.  The fact that 4 old, casual chops can't get around in 4 hours under the rules in a tournament does not explain why 4 young, good, tournament players can't.

Dave,
You know good and well that the pace of play in the championship flight of the club tournament is slow, too.  It might not quite as slow as the 4th flight, because the 4th flight guys don't play enough tournament golf not to freak out, but it's still slow relative to casual rounds.  You know that, and I know that you know that.

You can use any and every adjective that you want; I've been called worse by better than you.  But what I'm saying about a 4 ball stroke play played fully under the Rules isn't a theory; it's true at every age, and for every ability.  It is, relative to other formats, a slow way to play golf.  It's slower than match play, it's slower than a points game, it's slower than a two-man better ball, whatever.  You name the format, and 4 ball stroke play is slower.

This thread isn't about HS kids holding up play on the weekends; they're not on the course then, at least as a team.  They are ONLY on the course on Monday (if the course is open on Mondays) thru Thursday.  But even on those 3 or 4 days, the thread isn't about HS holding up other four balls and ruining the pace of play all over the course; the HS kids don't even get there until 3:30 or 4 pm.  The ONLY people coming out to play golf then are guys trying to play a quick 9 or 18 after work and before dark, and they are typically playing as a single or as a twosome.  When they discover that this isn't going to work out, they're pissed, and they'd be pissed if the kids were playing at a 3.5 pace; they're in the way!  That's the reality of HS golf.

And btw, the adults at the club where YOU played HS golf weren't one bit happier about seeing you out there late on a spring afternoon than is the case now.  You were a HS kid, and you were in the way.  You remember yourself has having played at a sub-4 pace, and maybe you did.  But it wasn't enough, I assure you; you were still in the way.

Fortunately for you and your teammates, the pro at the club understood, and knew that he had support from your parents and others for letting the team play there.  More to the point, he knew that the guys that bitched about the HS kids bitched about EVERYTHING anyway, and weren't to be taken seriously, especially when they complained about kids that were meeting the club's pace of play standards anyway.

[Mike Sweeney]

Has it never dawned on you that the pace of play started getting REALLY bad once TV (and the money that came with it) came into the game?  Can you really not understand that this game used to be played all the damn time in less than 3 hours at match play and in the low 3s in fourball stroke play under the rules?   Or do you simply believe that the old dead guys were liars?  Or that they didn't know how to tell time?

In addition to the money, I would also add that the data collection and the subsequent strategic reaction(s) to that data in golf and all of sports has added to the slowdown of sports. That starts with swing speed practice routines and putting routines from the practice range to the on-course yardage, swing and putting decisions.


I can't argue with the data, in fact, I am intrigued by it. I love all the "sports science" segments on ESPN and similar. If I started playing "Real Golf" again, I would do it to keep up and compete. Thus, the higher ups need to update rules to address the slowdowns.


Golf has historically been slow to react and change, see PED's. It is an uphill climb for the high school coaches to swim against the tide coming out of the PGA Tour and USGA. While AG and Ron seem to have thrown in the towel, I will always try to support high school golf. I have been playing for 40 years now, and it has lasted way longer than the other sports in my life. Golf, via high school golf, made a good investment in me as nobody in my family played.


Headed to a college lacrosse game today where NOBODY has a chance to play professionally. #GoodOldCollegeHate

[A.G._Crockett]

This one will be it for me; I can't imagine having any more to say about this.  We "progressed" to the point where Dave has me calling Donald Ross a liar, and Mike says that I've "thrown in the towel". (Mike is sort of right; I threw in the towel on coaching golf back in 2006 when my son's high school baseball career started, and I threw in the towel on working at all three years ago.)

So for clarity: 
1. I don't like slow play.  I don't play slowly, no matter what format I'm playing.  Walking on my own on an empty course, if I'm not back in under three hours, send out a search party; I'm face down somewhere.

2. When I coached golf, I was on my players' asses on a daily basis about THEIR pace of play.

3. Whether or not the proper pace of play is 3.5, or 4, or 4.5, or whatever, a VERY important question, and critical at EVERY course; I've never said otherwise.

4. Holding HS golfers to whatever the course has determined to be the proper pace of play for a four ball is more than reasonable; it's essential. Again, I've never said otherwise.

5. Four ball stroke play, of all of the possible formats, is the slowest out there.  This does NOT mean that it can't be completed at a pace that meets course standards; it can be and ABSOLUTELY should be, and I have NEVER said otherwise on this stinking mess of a thread.  (Go ahead; go back and look.) But a four ball stroke play competition, be it a club tournament or a HS match, has very little in common with the way a casual round of golf, or even the Saturday am points game, is played.  If you are standing in the fairway getting pissed because a player on the green is marking a 2' putt, guess what?  You're going to be pissed A LOT!  (Dave throws in the silly red herring of old, infirm guys in the club tournament, but he KNOWS that the good players are just as slow, if not slower; witness the PGA Tour.  But he's an attorney, so there you go...)

6. As long as a high school match is meeting the course's stated pace of play standard, there is NOT a problem, and the club staff KNOWS that.  That a single or a twosome is unable to play thru between 3 and 6 groups in order to get their round completed in 2.5 to 3.5 hours late in the afternoon doesn't change that at all, and the club staff know THAT, too.  And that the same individuals who bitch about everything at the club from the speed of the greens to the temperature of the beer comes in and bitches about HS kids doesn't change anything, either, and the club staff knows that, too.

Done.

[Peter Pallotta]

AG - to paraphrase the old vaudeville comedians,  that's a post to walk on!
I played my first nine of the season at my local course. In front of me, 3 early 20s guys, playing briskly and walking fast. I joined them. But 3 holes later we get to 4 men in their early 60s -- in carts and as slow as molasses.  I think they were members, because the moved liked they owned the place and couldn't give a crap about anyone else. Maybe they were A-holes when they were young too.

[Niall C]

Mike


As often happens when playing through you rush and end up making a hash of the hole. IMO that is a small price to pay for not having to spend the next 3 or 4 hours hanging around waiting to play every shot with your blood pressure going through the roof.

And there is the problem. Why are you so angry at having to wait? If you can eliminate this anger you eliminate the problem.


You know it's not just golf, it's driving, waiting at the sandwich shop for someone who doesn't know what they want, waiting at the convenience store for the guy in front to move aside, waiting for the preacher to make his f-ing point, waiting, waiting, waiting. Last weekend I was in my car 20 hours practicing courteous followship, it's some hard stuff but does build the discipline it takes to enjoy the small things in life. You'll never get past the waiting in life so sit back and learn not to let it ruin your day. Hell, you may even make the day of the people you are waiting on more pleasant.

Alternatively you could just get the f*** out the way and let other people enjoy enjoy there round the way they want, not the way you want ? Not difficult, is it John ?

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike


As often happens when playing through you rush and end up making a hash of the hole. IMO that is a small price to pay for not having to spend the next 3 or 4 hours hanging around waiting to play every shot with your blood pressure going through the roof.

And there is the problem. Why are you so angry at having to wait? If you can eliminate this anger you eliminate the problem.


You know it's not just golf, it's driving, waiting at the sandwich shop for someone who doesn't know what they want, waiting at the convenience store for the guy in front to move aside, waiting for the preacher to make his f-ing point, waiting, waiting, waiting. Last weekend I was in my car 20 hours practicing courteous followship, it's some hard stuff but does build the discipline it takes to enjoy the small things in life. You'll never get past the waiting in life so sit back and learn not to let it ruin your day. Hell, you may even make the day of the people you are waiting on more pleasant.

Alternatively you could just get the f*** out the way and let other people enjoy enjoy there round the way they want, not the way you want ? Not difficult, is it John ?

Niall,
Not realistic or relevant in this context; there would be between 3 and 6 very tightly bunched groups to play thru.  So in that respect, it IS difficult.

In my experience, the pro shop(s) is generally very careful to warn people coming out late on a day when there is a HS competition that they will be behind those groups.  MOST people understand and have no problem with it.

MOST people...

[Dan_Callahan]

How does a 3 person match play work?  3 matches on every hole I guess?  I suppose that could work.  One match could be over early, but the other 2 play on near the end if its close?

Three person match play sounds confusing but is really pretty simple. The three #1s go out together, from school A, B and C. Each school is actually playing two matches. So if I'm the #1 from school A, I am playing one match against school B and another match against school C. It happens frequently that one of those matches might get closed out early while the other match continues. If the kid from school C loses to both A and B, he can either walk in or, as I advise my kids, stay out there and keep playing. Because it's golf. And it's awesome.

[Kalen Braley]

How does a 3 person match play work?  3 matches on every hole I guess?  I suppose that could work.  One match could be over early, but the other 2 play on near the end if its close?

Three person match play sounds confusing but is really pretty simple. The three #1s go out together, from school A, B and C. Each school is actually playing two matches. So if I'm the #1 from school A, I am playing one match against school B and another match against school C. It happens frequently that one of those matches might get closed out early while the other match continues. If the kid from school C loses to both A and B, he can either walk in or, as I advise my kids, stay out there and keep playing. Because it's golf. And it's awesome.

Dan,

That does sound interesting.  And it could be visa versa....  The kid from School A could be lights out and close out both of his opponents and then walk in with a 2-0 victory, while the other two finish out their match.

[John Kavanaugh]

Alternatively you could just get the f*** out the way and let other people enjoy enjoy there round the way they want, not the way you want ? Not difficult, is it John ?

Naill,


Both your anger and desire to play at exactly the speed you choose without regard for anyone else on the course is evident. Thank you.

[Cliff Hamm]

I played college basketball for Gary Williams (NCAA Championship at Maryland), Dr Tom Davis (BC, Stanford, Iowa)

Off the subject, but you didn't mention that Gary Williams was the assistant and Dr. Tom Davis the head coach at Lafayette Colege in the early '70s!  Jay Motolla ,head of the MGA, would certainly know this.

[A.G._Crockett]

This one will be it for me; I can't imagine having any more to say about this.  We "progressed" to the point where Dave has me calling Donald Ross a liar, and Mike says that I've "thrown in the towel". (Mike is sort of right; I threw in the towel on coaching golf back in 2006 when my son's high school baseball career started, and I threw in the towel on working at all three years ago.)

So for clarity: 
1. I don't like slow play.  I don't play slowly, no matter what format I'm playing.  Walking on my own on an empty course, if I'm not back in under three hours, send out a search party; I'm face down somewhere.

2. When I coached golf, I was on my players' asses on a daily basis about THEIR pace of play.

3. Whether or not the proper pace of play is 3.5, or 4, or 4.5, or whatever, a VERY important question, and critical at EVERY course; I've never said otherwise.

4. Holding HS golfers to whatever the course has determined to be the proper pace of play for a four ball is more than reasonable; it's essential. Again, I've never said otherwise.

5. Four ball stroke play, of all of the possible formats, is the slowest out there.  This does NOT mean that it can't be completed at a pace that meets course standards; it can be and ABSOLUTELY should be, and I have NEVER said otherwise on this stinking mess of a thread.  (Go ahead; go back and look.) But a four ball stroke play competition, be it a club tournament or a HS match, has very little in common with the way a casual round of golf, or even the Saturday am points game, is played.  If you are standing in the fairway getting pissed because a player on the green is marking a 2' putt, guess what?  You're going to be pissed A LOT!  (Dave throws in the silly red herring of old, infirm guys in the club tournament, but he KNOWS that the good players are just as slow, if not slower; witness the PGA Tour.  But he's an attorney, so there you go...)

6. As long as a high school match is meeting the course's stated pace of play standard, there is NOT a problem, and the club staff KNOWS that.  That a single or a twosome is unable to play thru between 3 and 6 groups in order to get their round completed in 2.5 to 3.5 hours late in the afternoon doesn't change that at all, and the club staff know THAT, too.  And that the same individuals who bitch about everything at the club from the speed of the greens to the temperature of the beer comes in and bitches about HS kids doesn't change anything, either, and the club staff knows that, too.

Done.

I'll just take this drivel as an admission that after 4 pages of a thread trying to do so, you've finally realized that you CAN'T defend the pathetic pace these kids play at...

Yawn...

[Niall C]

Alternatively you could just get the f*** out the way and let other people enjoy enjoy there round the way they want, not the way you want ? Not difficult, is it John ?

Naill,


Both your anger and desire to play at exactly the speed you choose without regard for anyone else on the course is evident. Thank you.

Jhon,


What is evident is that I'm happy to let others play at their pace while you are not. Nothing to thank you for there, unfortunately.


Niall

[Niall C]

Niall,
Not realistic or relevant in this context; there would be between 3 and 6 very tightly bunched groups to play thru.  So in that respect, it IS difficult.

In my experience, the pro shop(s) is generally very careful to warn people coming out late on a day when there is a HS competition that they will be behind those groups.  MOST people understand and have no problem with it.

MOST people...

AG


In my experience MOST people are perfectly happy to let faster groups/singles play through. Who wants someone pushing them all the time. Then again some people are ill mannered and inconsiderate enough to not give a toss about others, but MOST people aren't like that.


MOST people......


Niall

[Sean_A]

Then again some people are ill mannered and inconsiderate enough to not give a toss about others,

A very harsh judgement.  Nobody can expect to play through a competition...that is a basic common courtesy.  If folks don't want to have a slow game don't play behind a competition.  Even if there isn't a competition on, singles and pairs have to be sensible as to when they choose to play.  I feel no obligation to allow smaller groups through if I am waiting on the group ahead.  That said, if I think there is a good chance the small group can sneak through several groups and move on I will call them through..as a favour to be kind.  But the bottom line for calling through is when my group is holding up play. 

Ciao   

[John Kavanaugh]

Niall,
Not realistic or relevant in this context; there would be between 3 and 6 very tightly bunched groups to play thru.  So in that respect, it IS difficult.

In my experience, the pro shop(s) is generally very careful to warn people coming out late on a day when there is a HS competition that they will be behind those groups.  MOST people understand and have no problem with it.

MOST people...

AG


In my experience MOST people are perfectly happy to let faster groups/singles play through. Who wants someone pushing them all the time. Then again some people are ill mannered and inconsiderate enough to not give a toss about others, but MOST people aren't like that.


MOST people......


Niall

Please don't take our smiles and cordial manner to be an indication that we enjoy stopping our games to let you through. It always surprises me when singles think we give a damn about their shots. Yes, we are thrilled when they hit the green or make a putt, but only because that gets them out of our lives that much sooner.

[Niall C]

Sean


I'm happy to stick by that comment because frankly I think it's spot on. The line AG was giving was that you have a number of fourballs together therefore the faster group/single has nowhere to go therefore the fourballs can ignore the common courtesy of letting a faster group through. It's just ill mannered......actually it's not, it's ill mannered and inconsiderate, I was right the first time.


John


Oh dear, is a wee bit of self sacrifice beyond you ?


Niall

[Kalen Braley]

My experience has been very similar to what Sean details.

The course is stacked wall to wall, with several groups in front of you, all of them waiting just as much as you... and that twosome behind is hitting balls up your backside to get thru and there is nowhere for them to go.  I equate it to a traffic jam on I-5 in rush hour.  Getting right up on my rear bumper isn't going to solve anything...just sit back and accept the fact that you don't have control in this situation.

[BHoover]

I would LOVE to see our own John Kavanaugh try to play through at the Big Ten championship at Victoria National this week! Maybe he'll be there handing out some official Buddy Up! literature too!

[A.G._Crockett]

Sean


I'm happy to stick by that comment because frankly I think it's spot on. The line AG was giving was that you have a number of fourballs together therefore the faster group/single has nowhere to go therefore the fourballs can ignore the common courtesy of letting a faster group through. It's just ill mannered......actually it's not, it's ill mannered and inconsiderate, I was right the first time.


John


Oh dear, is a wee bit of self sacrifice beyond you ?


Niall

Deleted.

[Kirk Gill]

Lots of angry people in this neck of the woods.


A few easily ignorable notes.


Lots of people play slow. Not just HS kids, not just old geezers. People watch guys like Spieth play and feel like they need to do the same thing when playing. They've either never been educated in a faster way, or have adjusted to what they see as a "new normal."


Tournament golf may by definition tend to be slower than an everyday round, but play COULD be sped up - there just needs to be a reason to play faster. It would be nice if something more abstract like "play faster to get the heck off of this graciously-provided private course so others can enjoy a round" would work, but perhaps a vigorously communicated and enforced pace of play regulation might get more attention. A possibility. In this I certainly defer to others' greater level of experience.


Niall, this is clearly an issue that gets your dander up, and I mean no offense, but most of the time when I have headed to a course to play as a single, I've been placed in an existing group of three, and played golf at the same pace as every other group out there. At TOC I had to go up to the threesome and obtain permission to join them before the starter would allow me to do so. Letting singles rip on through kinda bugs me, unless of course it's my group that is slowing things down. I'm willing to entertain the notion that this is a lack of empathy on my part. It's like when you're stuck in traffic, and a guy on a motorcyle whips by you on the shoulder.


John K says " [/size]If you can eliminate this anger you eliminate the problem." Seems wise to me. Reminds me of a meme I saw the other day - "Anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die." [/color]