The rough at Augusta

[Mark Fedeli]

Are there any spots at Augusta where the rough actually makes the hole more challenging than if the ball had continued to roll? It seems like all it does is save players from further difficulty, and isn't long enough to even lead to very many bad lies. There's something like when Tiger's ball was up against it on 16 for his famous chip-in, but that's stretching.


If you do think the rough makes it play easier, how much more difficult do you think it would play if all rough was removed, even on the banks?

[Greg Tallman]

Virtually any approach shot on the course where a few yards means the difference between a birdie opportunity and potential disaster/bogey.

[V. Kmetz]

Virtually any approach shot on the course where a few yards means the difference between a birdie opportunity and potential disaster/bogey.

Which means nearly every 2 and 3 shot hole...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Haven't watched yet.  Is it long enough for flier lies?

[Mark Fedeli]

Virtually any approach shot on the course where a few yards means the difference between a birdie opportunity and potential disaster/bogey.

Which means nearly every 2 and 3 shot hole...

Maybe. Provide a specific where a shot is worse off in the rough than it would be if it rolled another 10-15 yards. That's what I'm interested in. To be clear, I don't deny it's more difficult to control the ball out of the rough than the fairway; I'm specifically asking for a place where the rough isn't typically saving a shot from a worse fate.

[John_Cullum]

A little right or through the dogleg on 9 comes to mind

[Greg Tallman]

Virtually any approach shot on the course where a few yards means the difference between a birdie opportunity and potential disaster/bogey.

Approach shots on holes 1,2,3,5,7,8,9,10,11,13,14,15,17 and 18. See Spieth's approach at 14 today as an example. Of course with his short game he got that up and in.



Which means nearly every 2 and 3 shot hole...

Maybe. Provide a specific where a shot is worse off in the rough than it would be if it rolled another 10-15 yards. That's what I'm interested in. To be clear, I don't deny it's more difficult to control the ball out of the rough than the fairway; I'm specifically asking for a place where the rough isn't typically saving a shot from a worse fate.

[V. Kmetz]

Maybe. Provide a specific where a shot is worse off in the rough than it would be if it rolled another 10-15 yards. That's what I'm interested in. To be clear, I don't deny it's more difficult to control the ball out of the rough than the fairway; I'm specifically asking for a place where the rough isn't typically saving a shot from a worse fate.

Oh you mean...laterally, like rolling 10-15 yards towards/into the pine straw? Off the top of my head, I'd have to say 2, 3, 5, 9, 13, 14, 15 and 17 are the places where the rough doesn't serve as much as a boundary, that "saves" shots more than it hurts the distance and flight control of shots that end up in it... I think 1, 7, 8, 10, and 18 is a place where that wee rough can "help" more than it hurts...11 is a tough call, because the trees that it is stopping the ball from entering are artificially imposed too..


cheers
vk

[Mark Fedeli]

Maybe. Provide a specific where a shot is worse off in the rough than it would be if it rolled another 10-15 yards. That's what I'm interested in. To be clear, I don't deny it's more difficult to control the ball out of the rough than the fairway; I'm specifically asking for a place where the rough isn't typically saving a shot from a worse fate.

Oh you mean...laterally, like rolling 10-15 yards towards/into the pine straw? Off the top of my head, I'd have to say 2, 3, 5, 9, 13, 14, 15 and 17 are the places where the rough doesn't serve as much as a boundary, that "saves" shots more than it hurts the distance and flight control of shots that end up in it... I think 1, 7, 8, 10, and 18 is a place where that wee rough can "help" more than it hurts...11 is a tough call, because the trees that it is stopping the ball from entering are artificially imposed too..


cheers
vk

#2 is an interesting one for this discussion. I don't see the rough being a hinderance to any second shots there. Even if you're going for it in two, most players aren't flying it all the way to the green so they might prefer the juicy lie in the rough in order to get the extra roll. Or, on #13, with creek left and woods right, how could rough be anything but a help to have a clear second? You mentioned 15. Dechambeau blasted a wood over the green today and avoided the water behind thanks to the rough on the bank.


John, I was thinking about the right side on 9. There is a little rough sticking out where the trees end that could stop a ball from having a slightly better angle into the green. There are also places like 13 green, where a ball could get stuck in the rough on the banks behind the green. Rolling back down or into a bunker would likely be a better outcome.

[Greg Tallman]

Maybe. Provide a specific where a shot is worse off in the rough than it would be if it rolled another 10-15 yards. That's what I'm interested in. To be clear, I don't deny it's more difficult to control the ball out of the rough than the fairway; I'm specifically asking for a place where the rough isn't typically saving a shot from a worse fate.

Oh you mean...laterally, like rolling 10-15 yards towards/into the pine straw? Off the top of my head, I'd have to say 2, 3, 5, 9, 13, 14, 15 and 17 are the places where the rough doesn't serve as much as a boundary, that "saves" shots more than it hurts the distance and flight control of shots that end up in it... I think 1, 7, 8, 10, and 18 is a place where that wee rough can "help" more than it hurts...11 is a tough call, because the trees that it is stopping the ball from entering are artificially imposed too..


cheers
vk

#2 is an interesting one for this discussion. I don't see the rough being a hinderance to any second shots there. Even if you're going for it in two, most players aren't flying it all the way to the green so they might prefer the juicy lie in the rough in order to get the extra roll. Or, on #13, with creek left and woods right, how could rough be anything but a help to have a clear second? You mentioned 15. Dechambeau blasted a wood over the green today and avoided the water behind thanks to the rough on the bank.


John, I was thinking about the right side on 9. There is a little rough sticking out where the trees end that could stop a ball from having a slightly better angle into the green. There are also places like 13 green, where a ball could get stuck in the rough on the banks behind the green. Rolling back down or into a bunker would likely be a better outcome.

It is as simple as asking any contestant whether they prefer aproaching a gren from the rough or fairway. It would be unanimous in favor of fairway. CONTROL is paramount to scoring at Augusta.

[Mark Fedeli]

It is as simple as asking any contestant whether they prefer aproaching a gren from the rough or fairway. It would be unanimous in favor of fairway. CONTROL is paramount to scoring at Augusta.

I clarified that I wasn't asking about rough vs fairway, but about rough vs ball continuing to roll.

[Bill_McBride]

A couple of guys who laid up on 15 hit too far and wound up in the rough short of the pond.   From there there was no way to spin the pitch so they played out into the middle of the green, no birdie opportunity. 

[Matt_Cohn]

A couple of guys who laid up on 15 hit too far and wound up in the rough short of the pond.   From there there was no way to spin the pitch so they played out into the middle of the green, no birdie opportunity.

I think to the original point, might not those balls have been in the water if there weren't rough there?

[jeffwarne]

on 14 the ball is definitely saved by the right rough from going into the woods.
The shot from the rough goes predictably just over as the player cant quite spin it enough to draw it back once it clears the upper tier-it then usually catches up in the grass just over the green.(denies birdie but usually par)
a shot from the pinestraw and trees would be more exciting to watch