[Jeff_Brauer]

Not to mention that the front left pin, with the option to clear a 6-10 ft deep bunker (albeit with perfect sand) or lay up well right with an inviting chipping area is well done.  Add in the over club with the downhill put and there are three real plays there, with the risk vs safe so different in result as to really tempt the risky play.

Only problem is, by 18, no one in contention is thinking lay up, and that might work better earlier in the round.  And, would work better for mere mortals than Tour Pros......a good club hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

I think you're confusing the intrinsic traits associated with an 18th hole in a meaningful golf tournament and actually having a good 18th hole.

Hell the 18th at Torrey Pines has produced just as much drama, if not more than 18 at Augusta.  Does that mean that abortion of a hole is good also?

Kalen, the hole gives the pros options.  It's not really penal -- even if they don't hit the shot well, they can play their next shot, and often from a position that leaves them a decent chance at par or even birdie. 

If you think this hole is bad, how do you feel about 18 at Pebble?   

Jim,

Funny you mention that...because 18 at Pebble was the example I was going to use an actual good finishing hole!! 

[Tommy Williamsen]

After playing 11-16, whic are pretty exciting, 17&18 lack the same kind of excitement. I'm glad they do not have water, however.  I love the Masters and ANCG but the finish is a tad lackluster.

[David_Tepper]

And of course remember that #18 was originally intended to be the 9th hole, which begs the question "Would the current 9th hole be a better finishing hole than the current 18th?"    

[Jim Nugent]

David, it came out in one of our recent threads that 18 was originally supposed to be 18.  But before the course opened, for some reason they flipped the front and the back.  Then they flipped them back again, so the course returned to its original configuration. 

Kalen: 18 at Pebble has water running the entire left side.  OB the entire right side.  Trees in the fairway in or near the landing zone for drives.  Seems to me penal every step of the way. 

[BHoover]

Besides its history, what makes the 18th at TOC so great? In terms of major championship golf, that hole seems better suited to a pitch-and-putt course.

Hand grenade thrown...ducking under the table.

[Marty Bonnar]

Brian,
It's a great question.
Ostensibly, TOC 18 is drivel.
Until you appreciate:
It's drivable in a West wind, but way harder in an easterly.
Granny Clark's Wynd is in play.
The valley of sin is always in the players mind and can be a bitch to play from (unless you're Rocca!)
OB is VERY close on the right side and long.
The green is no gimme - very subtle slopes make reading it hard.
It's St Andrews, dude!
Other than that it's a dawdle.

F.

[Will MacEwen]

I am sure this is overly simplistic, but when the tournament is on the line, I like that players have a reasonable chance of making birdie and a very real fear of making bogey if they let their guard down.

I think it has served the event well.

[John Kavanaugh]

This from a member of Olympic. I'd say that I owed you one but even I'm not that lame.

John: Olympic plays NOTHING like the stereotype we in the Midwest have of it.  Nothing at all.

I've not only played the 18th at Olympic, Tom Meeks went to my high school. The hole is part of local folklore.

[Joe Sponcia]

Gib


I agree.  Like most of Augusta...until you are on the property, you can't understand the movement of the property, the angles, the minuscule places one has to hit a juiced ball, the pace of the greens, or how bad the tee ball is on 18.


If this hole was on one of Trumps courses (please don't turn this political - he owns a bunch of courses and has goofy waterfalls) we would universally lambaste it.  This is the epitome of what Dr Klein calls "vertical bowling".

[Terry Lavin]

This from a member of Olympic. I'd say that I owed you one but even I'm not that lame.

Well said. The last at Olympic is a glorified muni finisher.  Not that I don't love the course. I do. Sort of like Cypress in that the last hole is pretty forgettable. The rest is pretty spectacular.

[Bill Brightly]

Preach brother Gib. I've been watching the Masters for so many years and every time I see the tee shot on 18 it makes me queasy.

[Jon Wiggett]

David, it came out in one of our recent threads that 18 was originally supposed to be 18.  But before the course opened, for some reason they flipped the front and the back.  Then they flipped them back again, so the course returned to its original configuration. 

Kalen: 18 at Pebble has water running the entire left side.  OB the entire right side.  Trees in the fairway in or near the landing zone for drives.  Seems to me penal every step of the way.

Jim,

didn't they want to start on todays 10th as the first because of the angle of the morning sun on todays first being an issue but then soon discovered that the dew around 11, 12 & 13 was more of an early morning issue so reverted back to the current format? I am not 100% certain about this but I do recall reading it somewhere.

Kalen,

I agree, PB 18 is a good finishing hole requiring a decision on the way to play the whole hole but sadly not much choice on the individual shots. What spoils it a little for me is the whole wall/ocean side is a bit of a mess though how to sort this I have no idea.

Jon

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

Agreed there is water left and OB way to the right.  But the main difference is choice and room to make those choices.

At ANGC
1) THe tee shot seems dictated to the player.  Hit a straight ball and try to avoid the bunkers.  Hit to the green and hope for a bird.

PB 18 has far more choices.

1)  Play the hole safe as a 3 shotter or go for it in 2 for an eagle.
2)  Risk going up the left side or play safe to the right and risk getting stymied by the trees.
3)   On the 2nd shot, you also face a bite off as much as you can chew for a better angle and shorter 3rd.
4)  Or layback for a safer layup, but face a more difficult approach.

In general, the playing  corridor is much wider than ANGC, I'd guess at least twice as wide and there are very few air hazards, aka trees to play the shot shape you want.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kalen,

I think the tee shot on 18 ANGC gets a "forced shape" pass because the course is generally believed to favor the draw.  Asking golfers to go with a different shot pattern on the final hole works in the overall context.  And, they still have a choice of straight 4 wood or curve driver to 3W.

[Jason Thurman]

I guess I just don't think it's a tragedy to make someone turn the ball with some accuracy once in a while if they're planning to hit it 310 yards.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I think the tee shot on 18 ANGC gets a "forced shape" pass because the course is generally believed to favor the draw.  Asking golfers to go with a different shot pattern on the final hole works in the overall context.  And, they still have a choice of straight 4 wood or curve driver to 3W.

Jeff,

I've never seen the course in person, but it certainly seems like with the tightness, the requirement is a straight ball as anything more than a slight fade, or baby draw will either hit the trees or end up in them.

[Will MacEwen]

Kalen,

Why is the strategy on the second shot at ANGC "hit to the green and hope for a birdie if you are lucky".

Are players not trying to be more precise than simply hitting at the green? Are birdies merely a function of luck and not skill?

This seems like a vague description that could reasonably apply to any golf hole.

I would suggest that players like O'Meara, Lyle and Mickelson who won the event with a birdie on 18 did so with good golf and not luck.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Why is the strategy on the second shot at ANGC "hit to the green and hope for a birdie if you are lucky".

Are players not trying to be more precise than simply hitting at the green? Are birdies merely a function of luck and not skill?

This seems like a vague description that could reasonably apply to any golf hole.

I would suggest that players like O'Meara, Lyle and Mickelson who won the event with a birdie on 18 did so with good golf and not luck.

Will I based my comment on two things:

1)  The overwhelming amount of responses in the players interviews on how they describe it.
2)  Its an uphill tee shot, in the 180-210 yard range to an obscured pin where you can't see the surface.

There just isn't much strategy there, hit to the green, hope for a birdie and pray you don't make bogey.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kalen,

You got to be kidding? With a front bunker, pin 10 feet behind (on Sunday....) and 100 feet of green behind that?  Uphill, so you need to take a bit of extra club? That combo offers pretty good risk reward because its so easy to bail out and still have a putt at it, albeit, a nearly impossible one.

The strategy is to just clear the bunker for a birdie, or take one extra club to make a twisty downhill putt.  Or, play out right for a side hill chip from the fw chipping area  (back right bunker shouldn't come into play for the Sunday pin)

If you don't think that is good strategy, please tell me what greens offer better ones?  Granted, there are obviously some, but that green epitomizes many greens in America.  It also epitomizes Jones and Mac basic philosophy of a green that isn't too hard most days, but can be hard with certain pin positions.

[Will MacEwen]

Sorry Kalen, that response is entirely non-specific.

Just because as a high handicapper you think the hole lacks strategy does not mean that birdies are a function of luck. Exacting play is rewarded.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't believe this is anecdotal at all, consider a few more things.

-- ANGC is a difficult course where anything under par is usually a good round.  (Thru 1.5 rounds this year, only 12 players are under par.)
-- Historically, the 18th plays as the 7th toughest with an average of 4.22.
-- Bubba Watson won in 2014 by shooting +1 on the hole for the week.
-- Masters champs Zach Johnson said this: 
The second shot is 6-7 percent uphill, so if you have 200 yards, it plays 10-15 yards longer. The green looks really, really small to the eye from the fairway. It’s multi-tiered with a false front. Middle of the green, especially with a mid-iron, is ideal. The ball will roll back if the pin is up front. It’s hard to get up-and-down long.
 

Hence, with such a demanding tee shot and perhaps slightly less demanding approach, a 4 is always a good result...a birdie a bonus.  Unless of course, because it is the 18th hole...players have to play risky and force the issue for a birdie.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  Our Beloved Ran said this a few years back about the last two holes.

And finally, the 18th is second to the 11th as the hardest hole through three rounds. I don’t in any way think this makes it a ‘great’ finishing hole - hearing how the tee ball is through a chute of trees is akin to nails on a chalkboard, to me at least. Indeed, when combined with the chip-out-a-thon at the 17th, the two holes make an uninspired finish, unless you are into NASCAR and just want to see wrecks. Regardless, none of us will be turning off the television sets early as absolutely no lead is safe when one gets to the 17th tee.

[Kalen Braley]

One more post to add here..

As many of you will recall Daniel Wexler did an excellent write up about ANGC with what appears to be a lot of due diligence.  Here's what he said about the 18th:

Since a hole built at 420 uphill yards in 1933 was clearly never intended to be easy, today’s long and strong version of the eighteenth may not play so very much harder than what Jones and MacKenzie had in mind.  But in this case, such relative consistency may be unfortunate, because while 72nd-green birdies to win The Masters have never been common, the difficulty of today’s hole minimizes such prospects tremendously

And then a bit later on when recommending changes:

Hole No.18 – The eighteenth was built to be a demanding test, and 72nd-hole birdies to win The Masters were nearly unheard of before its recent lengthening anyway – but wouldn’t Sunday afternoon be that much more fun with this hole playing, say, 20 yards shorter, allowing players a chance to hit at least a semi-attacking approach?

[BHoover]

So then how do you account for 2013 when both Scott and Cabrera birdied 18 to force a playoff? I don't think it was just luck that they both made 3 there.

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