[Andrew Carr]

I hope Mr. Nicklaus gives this course the respect it deserves.  Maybe some of the bunkers will be brought more into the playing corridors, against Mr. Kahn's wishes.  Can anyone shed some light as to why Nicklaus Design is the team being tasked with modifying one of the few Macdonald's we still have?

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/jack-nicklaus-group-in-talks-to-lease-oheka-castle-redesign-golf-course-1.11656168?pts=867731

[David_Tepper]

"Can anyone shed some light as to why Nicklaus Design is the team being tasked with modifying one of the few Macdonald's we still have?"

Andrew -

The answer to your question is rather self-evident. The Nicklaus group is willing to commit to leasing the course for 99 years and investing $20 million in the property. It is as simple as that.

DT
 

[Bret Lawrence]

Andrew,


If you look on historicaerials.com there is an aerial from 1953 of Oheka Castle and Cold Spring Country Club.  It shows many features of the course that are no longer visible.


The developer mentioned in your article is Stanley Gale who has worked with Nicklaus on projects such as Ibis Golf and Country Club in Florida and more recently the Jack Nicklaus Golf Club in South Korea.  Gale has been involved in a partnership for many years to develop the ultra modern city of Songdo, South Korea from reclaimed land.


Gale's philosophy tends to lean toward very modern design in his developments.  It would be a pleasant surprise if he chooses to restore the classic look of the golf course.


Bret

[Ronald Montesano]

If I want someone to renovate a course, I'm not calling in a restoration expert.


I think that this thread should end with my fine comment.

[Steve Wilson]

If I want someone to renovate a course, I'm not calling in a restoration expert.[/size]I think that this thread should end with my fine comment.

I agree!
[/color]

[Mike_Young]

The guys above are correct.  I just don't get this site sometimes and how they automatically go off on someone like JN Designs.  I may bitch about signatures but my bitching is about the value not about the quality of work.  There are situations where the name is worth what you pay and there are times when it does not create the needed increase in income etc to justify.  JN is one of the few that actually knows the stuff.  And he has good guys working for him.  I'm sure JWL can do what he thinks is needed there and it will be fine. 
But you guys need to also think about something here.  This site has gotten to where it is always worshiping the guys out there reworking a few bunkers or greens surfaces etc and hyping them as the next coming.  The number of architects still working who have actual routings on the ground is dwindling.  When it gets to where the industry is mainly people who have never done routings and put a course on the ground....well that will be interesting.  No one knows how good someone is if they don't have that. IMHO. 

Oh well...my gripe for the day....

[Colin Sheehan]

I am curious to get the precise year associated with the Otto Kahn Estate course. Based on some searching the internet, I see 1923, 1925 and 1919 and Macdonald with Raynor and just Raynor. If anyone could shed some light it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

[Bret Lawrence]

Colin,


Here is a link to an article by Devereux Emmet on private courses.  The article includes pictures of the Kahn estate course.  The article is dated December 1919.  Judging by the pictures, the course looks well established by 1919.


http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1919/gi123o.pdf


The Kahn estate was purchased in 1914 and it took two years to bring in enough dirt to make the Kahn estate one of the highest points on Long Island. 


C.B. Macdonald also writes about the Otto Kahn course in Scotland's Gift Golf on page 305:
"I tried to deter Otto Kahn from building 18 holes, but he thought he would have a fine lawn in front of his beautiful Long Island House.  Of course, that in itself is worth while"


There is another thread or two on this subject which included an article as early as 1917 mentioning Macdonald building a private links for Otto Kahn. However, at the time Kahn owned two separate estates, both with 18 hole courses.  Considering I have never seen an attribution for Macdonald building a course at Cedar Court, I strongly believe this article was referring to Oheka.


Sorry, I don't have an exact date, but maybe this can narrow down your search.


Bret

[Andrew Carr]

The guys above are correct.  I just don't get this site sometimes and how they automatically go off on someone like JN Designs.  I may bitch about signatures but my bitching is about the value not about the quality of work.  There are situations where the name is worth what you pay and there are times when it does not create the needed increase in income etc to justify.  JN is one of the few that actually knows the stuff.  And he has good guys working for him.  I'm sure JWL can do what he thinks is needed there and it will be fine. 
But you guys need to also think about something here.  This site has gotten to where it is always worshiping the guys out there reworking a few bunkers or greens surfaces etc and hyping them as the next coming.  The number of architects still working who have actual routings on the ground is dwindling.  When it gets to where the industry is mainly people who have never done routings and put a course on the ground....well that will be interesting.  No one knows how good someone is if they don't have that. IMHO. 

Oh well...my gripe for the day....

Mike I'm not trying to worship returning a few bunkers, I long for Macdonald designs being shelter from modernization campaigns, especially by those that have been relatively unsympathetic to classic designs in the past.  This post wasn't started as an attack on JN Design specifically but the way in which they and many others modernize the works of our masters.  I realize that CSCC is far from Macdonald's best work but I fear it will be unrecognizable after this facelift.

And yes I also understand the economics of this but how is this going to help their club?  Locally, Glen Oaks spent an enormous amount of money on the course and clubhouse.  As a result of those efforts they have received a PGA Tour Playoff Event.  I don't see that happening at CSCC, so what's the end game?

[Tom_Doak]

I personally don't see anything wrong with someone reinventing this golf course.  It was never one of the best examples of Macdonald's work [he himself as much as said so], and the current owners of the property haven't done much of anything to preserve or restore it over the past decade or two.


It is incredibly hard to get permits to develop a new course in eastern Long Island and probably a wise move by Nicklaus' group to approach it by buying a course that is already allowed to exist.  However, they did the project at St. Andrews GC in NY years ago under the same premise, and that didn't turn out very well for anybody.  Hopefully the housing market will not crash again to spite this latest venture.

[Mike Sweeney]

It is incredibly hard to get permits to develop a new course in eastern Long Island and probably a wise move by Nicklaus' group to approach it by buying a course that is already allowed to exist.  However, they did the project at St. Andrews GC in NY years ago under the same premise, and that didn't turn out very well for anybody.  Hopefully the housing market will not crash again to spite this latest venture.

I certainly have not seen the paperwork, but the "Nicklaus' group" does not sound like Jack Nicklaus writing a check or signing personally on the debt. I am guessing that he may take some of his fee in equity, but when I pay my first green fee I will probably have more money in the project than Jack Nicklaus.


Winning Green Jackets puts you in unique positions in life. This is not a critique, just a little envy that nobody wants to license/market my name

[Colin Sheehan]

Bret,
Thank you for the info. After additional research, I think, at least for now, 1919 was the year the course opened for play.


Here's a link to an aerial of the course from 1953.


https://picasaweb.google.com/110429368341669114147/GolfCourseAerials#6270804993397846386


I realize what Macdonald said about it, but it still looks like an interesting course and rather well-preserved through the early 1950s. Remember, Macdonald slagged off his own Chicago Golf in the 20s to the members of that club instructing them to have Raynor come and redo it. He could be rather critical when comparing things for NGLA and his other top tier work.


I realize this won't happen, but it would be cool if Nicklaus design was able to redo this course as it once existed instead of giving us the 350th Nicklaus design on this planet.


Also, I was able to find an image of the Macdonald "estate" course  at the Whitney's "Greentree" property nearby. It looks like a three-hole course that could function for nine holes. Pretty cool. There's evidence of its remains on google earth as well.

[David Kelly]

The erasure of a Macdonald/Raynor course, even a lesser one that has already been tampered with, for yet another Nicklaus joint is another loss for golf architecture. 


Preservation and restoration is as much about recording the activity of the great artists and architects as it is about protecting their best work.

[Colin Sheehan]

Would anyone out there happen to know the hole names of the Oheka Course?
Or where to look?


Reviewing this past thread, I think the course is given short shrift for its original design. Again reviewing that aerial from the 1950s it looks like a very fun and exciting course. Far from a dull affair of an lazy estate course.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/DgdZVXUmAuegGZKM8




And imagine how much fun that would have been as Otto's weekend guest in the 1920s during a lavish party weekend. That must have been something.

[Craig Disher]

For history's sake, this is a view of the course in 1940 - not much changed through 1953. Whatever changes were made post-1953 seem to have erased what was recognizable as CBM's. Still, it's a missed opportunity even if the owners were left with a lesser CBM design. Have any failed because the members or the public preferred something fresh and modern?

 

[Bret Lawrence]

Craig,


That's a great aerial photo of Oheka.  The Nassau County site has a 1926 aerial, but it's not quite as clear as the 1940 version.  The photo I am posting is a screenshot.  To see the map in more detail click on the link below the photo.  Select the Layers tab, Select Nassau County 1926, then locate the course.  Although the course is outside the county line, the photos from 1926 overlap the county line here.




https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/


Bret

[Bret Lawrence]

Here are two more Macdonald/Raynor estate courses in Nassau County found on the website posted above.


The first is Payne Whitney's estate in Manhasset:





The second is the 3 green course from Edward Moore's estate in Roslyn (both courses were mentioned along with Oheka in Macdonalds book):





Bret

[Craig Disher]

...

[Tim Martin]

Craig,


That's a great aerial photo of Oheka.  The Nassau County site has a 1926 aerial, but it's not quite as clear as the 1940 version.  The photo I am posting is a screenshot.  To see the map in more detail click on the link below the photo.  Select the Layers tab, Select Nassau County 1926, then locate the course.  Although the course is outside the county line, the photos from 1926 overlap the county line here.




https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/


Bret

Bret-That’s a great find. Mac/Raynor really has a presence in Nassau County. Do you have anything from the original Deepdale course?

[Bret Lawrence]

Tim,


Deepdale can be found on this site too.  I don't have a photo, but if you scroll the western border of the map, Lake Success is labelled with a yellow tab on the aerial photo. The course is just north of Lake Success.  Parts of the course may have still been under construction or growing in as of 1926?


Bret

[Craig Disher]

The source for this and the one of Cold Spring is better than what the county used. Unfortunately, the original negatives of the 1926 aerials are probably lost.  Deepdale:

[Tim Martin]

The source for this and the one of Cold Spring is better than what the county used. Unfortunately, the original negatives of the 1926 aerials are probably lost.  Deepdale:

Thanks Craig! Lots of cool looking bunkers.

[Marty Bonnar]

For history's sake, this is a view of the course in 1940 - not much changed through 1953. Whatever changes were made post-1953 seem to have erased what was recognizable as CBM's. Still, it's a missed opportunity even if the owners were left with a lesser CBM design. Have any failed because the members or the public preferred something fresh and modern?

 

Damn fine parterre.
F.

[Brad Tufts]

I've been to two weddings at Oheka (2015, 2017), both family-related, stayed in the mansion both times, and never had a chance to play the course...and staying there is really the only easy way to get on!  I should turn in my GCA card...

[Tim Martin]

I've been to two weddings at Oheka (2015, 2017), both family-related, stayed in the mansion both times, and never had a chance to play the course...and staying there is really the only easy way to get on!  I should turn in my GCA card...

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